Screen Difference' / Netcode - Feedback and Examples

I still feel like this is a massive issue that has yet to be adressed. Would like to hear some thoughts?

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The sniper after u drop ur head into cover and still get killed is the most annoying…u can’t really bait snipers to miss anymore

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What I will say is that 90% when people complain (including myself) its because they simply miss, so TC is kinda weighing all the valid cases against all the invalid ones, it compounds the issue.

If I had to guess I doubt they can fix this issue, its probably too fundamental to the game itself to fix on a whim, and even if they did there is no guarantee that it wouldn’t just cause other issues to spring up in its stead, all of this is just a result of Gears 5 being unfinished (in terms of polish and content) from launch, not to say that all the complaints are worthless but I am confident they’ll do nothing about it in GOW5 (though they had better damn address the issue with GOW6)

Hi & thanks for this & all your input in GoW. It feels pretty bad these days… Heres 1 example Why after 3 big chonks in 2v2 and the last shot is square in the face he gibs me then it shows that I have 3 hits 99%. @ 100% he is dead so why he is not at least down??? Yes consistency is the key!

After watching your clip, I have to say that only few things has surprised me. One was after you had made counter on del and got gibbed during his stun anim.

So anyway, after watching clip I can try explain some of the situations I’ve seen but I have to bring some words and describe them. Also I’m basing my interpretations on my experience from making mods for gears pc (H.I.V.E, unfinished extended mp mod)

Client - player that joined server.
Client side handling events - if an event starts and it’s set as client side, all aspects of this event will be calculated on client and doesn’t needs to be shown on server with exception of critical events.

One needed attachment:
http://forums.gearsofwar.com/t/spending-more-time-here/35490/827 PLEASE READ FIRST THIS POST

That means if opponent has 1000 ping, nothing had run through between his gun and you, in time of a second (opponent <-> server connection is counting here) you will be hit, even if you hid in cover half second earlier.

Connection differences between player 1 <-> server <->player 2 is big enough to make some bs happen. You can’t avoid this. If you have 10 ping, opponent has 20, so you see his movement start on screen after 30ms, which is after full 1 frame. If opponent has 1000 ping, you see his movement after whole second.

Ok so let’s. Start:

  1. First example with 1000 ping comparison - just check attached post made by Ryan Cleven when he was on Forums. In such high ping you can have quite big packetloss, so it can be that game will show you that you was hit by jd, even if jd started to shoot to late, here could be magnetism applied.

  2. Floating blood examples - it is created by to factors, client side event handling and connection differences. When you see blood splatters near your body, it indicates where you’ve been on opponent screen when he shot you. Now you see the difference of 50 ping in player position on 2 clients. All particle effects (this is what blood splatter is) are spawned on client, so when you get hit, your game spawns it on your screen, but it takes location of splatter from opponent game (fun fact: every player can see different blood effects when they see you get hit). It wonders me why they decided to make you see such floating blood splatters and didn’t decide to make your game fully control of hit particles spawn location.

  3. Ghost bullets. This is caused by differences in ping. Other player probably didn’t seen your last shot. You were unlucky to shoot after being downed at server and server was delivering you that info. Why particles appears? From same reason that I told you above, it spawns on client and when server confirms shot, then others see it ( it causes funny thing, when your hit particles end, on some clients it starts showing).

  4. Gib range differences are made due to our wrong perception, it means when on your screen you are definitely 20 cm outside of gib range, on enemy screen you can be at gib range border or 1 cm inside gib range in 50 ping difference (both players has 25 ping). Remember that shots ate calculated on client side. When you see him doing up a, you are 20 cm closer to him on his screen (10cm closer is your position on his screen and he is 10 cm closer to you).

I could give more examples of such nonsense, but it only will come down to one thing. TC should do Server side shot handling system. It would make you harder to play on higher pings, but it could be easier to predict what your opponent tries to do and counter it in time. Now what you see on screen is a bit irrelevant, cause you don’t know what is happening to you on enemy screen.

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Player go dbno when he gets 100% damage and isn’t hit by any insta-kill damage in last hit.

Great vid! Thanks for bringing up these issues. Idk if some of these issues fall into the same category, recently on @livo thread with Jamie , he did state that TC was working on a better way to tell the story of what happened. Exactly how you stated in your video that the two players are seeing two different things. Maybe @Livo can chime in on this he was more in tune with the conversation than I. As for ghost shot I think The explanation was the server didn’t recognize it even though we actually seen the pellets land, that the story was already told and the trade window is the smallest it ever been. Either way your absolutely right this needs to be addressed. Thanks again Zii.

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Good 2 know thks!

Good video Z

Zii thank you so much for the spot-on video. Everything you said is exactly what gets me so frustrated at times. The screen difference and the ghost bullets are the worst. You know you shot your weapon but where did it go? As for people spongin, I find that it is due to connection. I live in the states “CA” and when I play someone from Mexico, forget about it. They are not going down and they one shot me every time.

It’s not hard to see that this game needs to be fixed. My kid has started playing and I laugh because he say’s some of the same things I do like. “WHAT, I SHOT FIRST!”, “WHERE DID MY BULLETS GO!” & “DAD, THIS GAME IS BROKEN”. I have been a gears fan since day one, and for the most part enjoy Gears 5. The one thing that is most frustrating is the lack of CONSISTENCY. This is the key word to describe the state of this game.

Fans have tons of different opinions about the past gears games but I’m willing to bet that they all can agree the game play was consistent. Except for GOW2 online versus, that was garbage.

9min46 - how has that guy bypassed the censorship in the chat? Every time I try to type the F word it comes up as ****.

They even star out “Karen” apparently. Though not the plural, “Karens”.

Thanks for the tag! But i’m going to give my answer to @Z_i_i

Yes, Jamie did recently jump on a thread I made and yes, he did give some helpful information BUT I totally totally totally agree with you that a lot of this is NOT the players not understanding ranges!

First I want to point out the 1 area I disagree and i’m sure you’ll agree that this is NOT unique to Gears 5, I have felt this on all Gears games, including the ones I like to defend. I feel like you have an “agenda” to try and make VALID points which I won’t deny, but use it to try and push for slower movement. If that’s something you want to do then I won’t attempt to tell you that you’re wrong as it’s your preference, but I would like you to consider that I had this issue ALL THE TIME on Gears UE, to the point I made a stupid video out of it.

Livo, Why don’t you like UE?

I think it’s fair to say that UE / 1 is the slowest Gears you could play with no UP A speed, if it were as you’re claiming here, this wouldn’t have happened on older games.

Now to where I am agreeing with you. (which is literally everything else)

The recent OSOK event was a brilliant example of it, day in day out I was seeing montagers who are arguably some of the best snipers on Gears of War, they were endlessly claiming to have hit people in the face but nothing happened!

Likewise as to what you’re suggesting, although lag does make it worse to the point you can understand and accept it happening, this is also an issue in low ping lobbies and it’s a problem. If we truly have 60Hz servers then 30ms or lower should not be causing issues like you have highlighted in your video! This is leading me to believe that we are back to 30Hz servers (or less!)

I see this in game so many times now that I don’t even bother recording it, it’s pathetic and although it was in issue in older games, it feels so much more apparent that in Gears 5, it’s more of an issue than it ever was.

To an extent I am the opposite of you as to where I am seeing the issue, you claim that you feel the issue arises from fast movement, but I find that I die from bot walkers more often than not, if I am moving quickly, my gun will not work. I recently held a quick poll on Twitter, make of it as you will.

I know people see this as “toxic” and “ego”, you know what, perhaps it is but I don’t care at this point because it’s TRUE and evidently it’s not just me who sees it. The worse you are at the game, the more rewarding it seems to be, that’s illogical to me. I know that this could go down a whole new path so I won’t, but I feel like this poll that I have showed looks at what you’re suggesting, I think it’s based on how you can go into a fight, you can know full well that you’re doing everything right and that you should win, but you also know that it’s not going to work and that you’re going to die.

You touched upon the health regeneration in your video and I feel like it’s a major factor! It’s something I have been pushing for change. Regular regeneration takes around 4 seconds of no damage intake to begin, than alone feels like a long time sometimes. But TC had the bright idea in Gears 4 to introduce the delay to regeneration whilst wall canceling, so even if you don’t wall bounce, if you try to slide out of the way, you won’t regen and that makes your regeneration time even longer. Whilst the whole time we’re being peppered by shots that shouldn’t even be hitting us, it’s silly. Agree or disagree with wall bouncing, there’s no denying that it’s meant to be an evasive technique but for reasons that only TC seem to have logic for, they not only called it an “advanced technique”, but they also made the choice to punish you for it.

So to sum up, what factors are at play in terms of the issues you’re speaking of?

  • Lag

  • Aim Assist

  • Slow / Delayed Health Regeneration

But as I said, I really believe that bot walking makes your game work better, with that I really feel like there’s something further that’s broken that we’re not seeing. I’m not even suggesting that average play works but hyperbounced shots don’t, but it’s just bot walkers who seem to have no issue. If it were just shots from very fast bouncers that didn’t work then i’d totally put that down to being too fast, but even average / slowish bouncing will force your shots to do nothing.

My examples that I showed to Jamie were from Gears 4, honestly all of my things are scattered all over the place now but here’s just a few.

Gears of War 4 Tribute “Trust”

This video is not a mature video, I did it out off pure frustration, not intended to be helpful in the slightest but it contains the clips i’d like you to see. It should start at 2:50, please watch for about 30 seconds or so.

I was told that it’s because I was pop shotting, I was showed why this was the case. As much as what Jamie was telling me actually made sense, it also didn’t because regardless of HOW I fire my shot, I can see the shots hitting people point blank and them not dying, even against some people who were barely even moving so lag shouldn’t even be a factor there!

All in all I agree that it’s a huge issue, but I just don’t see them ever fixing it because as a player, I can’t even pin point where the problem is so based on feedback, I don’t know how TC possibly can.

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Seems like the ghost shot is happening as you’re getting downed. Maybe this is an intentional design to create less trades or “updates?”

It was apparent after the second example you’re clearly hitting the shot but also going down at the same time and that’s the shot the game decides, “nah you didn’t shoot him.” Some clarity from the devs on this would be great unless it’s just a bug that needs fixing.

Your game dont decide if shot comes out or not. Your game calculates shot trajectory sends it to server and server decides if you shot or not. In Ghost bullet example we see a bad mechanics made by TC, I mean that hit particles are shown before applying damage. Most of this examples are easy to explain with basic networking knowledge: When you shot someone, your game was sending info to server about it and showed you hit particles, but in same time server was sending your game an info that you were downed. So when server got your shot info, you were already laying on ground, so server ignored your shot. It’s matter of milliseconds, but in such so high paced gameplay is really large ammount of time.

Unless i’m mistaken, Ryan Cleven announced in the past that anything up to 250ms ping was “fair game”, Therefore we are left to assume that trades within that “window” should happen.

250ms? Good grief. That’s far from fair game. Anything above 100 is when I start noticing some wonkiness. 150 is pushing but 250 is ridiculously high for a game these days.

I used to hit around 100-125 on a US West Server (I’m US East) during the days of Gears 1. I now hit under 100 there and still connect well to the UK. On an East server I never jump higher than 10ms. Anyone spiking above 100-150 start stuttering and I start seeing lots of trades or even ghost bullets. Idk what planet they live on where 250ms isn’t bad. For Honor would make updates to mechanics and attacks that would range from 100-300ms changes and they were very noticable.

While you’re right about this and this is actually the best explanation as to why we saw what we saw in the video can we really put it past TC at this point to implement crazy mechanics to make the game play differently? To give a boost for some unskilled players? I’m reading about the feedback from the dev playlist and everyone is saying that, paraphrasing, the skill curve is basically back. No more unskilled players getting lucky bc of a mechanic. Again, not saying you’re wrong at all (well bc I can’t; your thought process makes perfect sense), but I wouldn’t put it past TC at this rate with the things they’ve added and/or changed coming into Gears 5.

My explanations only relates to existing tunings and observations of Zii clip. I didnt taken into it a dev playlist. I also wasnt including any handicap mechanics. Every game is diffirent, cause connection is not something constant, it changes over time and many, I mean a lot variables has affect on actual gameplay experience. So it can feel that matches are diffirent every time.

Can personally confirm lucking is no longer a thing. Also noticed my shots hitting the wrong target sometimes if 2 enemies were body to body has been reduced significantly. What a relief! I was sick of going down because my shot hit a player I didn’t aim at.

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Gears as franchise have the worsts net code in gaming, eve call of duty with P2P connection work and feal better then any gears game ever. Reason is UE and useless people that can’t and won’t work on good net code…

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