New Kait vs Old Kait, which is better?

I have to say, when I first heard of this change I thought it was doom for Kait, initially. 5m distance for bleed was ridiculous, but I knew it’ll have to be an adjustment, and I thought making the change would make her harder to use because she was always easy to use. But, this new Kait is a much better improvement then the old one.

If you apply all stim cards with no cloak cards she can cause havoc on enemies (level 5 or 6 cards), tanking all types of damage. If you’re a run-and-gun type player, this new Kait is a plus for you. Those pesky Deebee Enforcers, and Imagos, are nothing for Kait now, especially within around 15m.

Which one do you think is better, and why?

Kait is balanced now. I can’t stand being in a lobby and having overpowered classes. It’s no fun.

All classes are much better and fun now.

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I haven’t had the chance to play as Kait/Infiltrator very much, so my input is more limited and I may well change my mind further down the line.

I think at that TC nerfed the wrong card. I think what made her very powerful before was the Blood Resonance card, which gives 160% extra damage at level 6 if I remember correctly.

The way I see it, is that Laceration causes bleed which is relatively small. Shotguns have a maximum range and beyond this range literally does no damage. Also the damage done is pellets based; and also distance based. However it’s Blood Resonance which applies the big damage on subsequent shots.

Now, TC have included two different shotguns in the game. The Gnasher is the more traditional shotgun which is used in close quarters. The Overkill has a bit more versatility to it as you can spam the trigger to unload it into the same enemy but its effectiveness is limtied as the spread is much bigger, press it once to fire two shells, or tap-and-hold-and-release to fire single shells at a time focus the spread for mid-range combat.

The way I see it is that this reduction to Laceration removes the possibility of the Overkill being effective at mid-range. I know some people will argue that shotguns are meant to be close-quarters, but the very fact that TC have included the Overkill in the game and designed it to work the way it does, means that it’s an intended tool. I see this change as limiting this style of play.

However if the damage from Blood Resonance was reduced, then this method of mid-range combat is still viable and an option, just less so than right now.

If they had to limit Laceration to a particular range, then 5 metres is too short range. 10 or 15 metres would have been much better.

@GCE put up some estimates of how much 5, 10 and 15 ingame metres would be and 5 metres is tiny. If you take most human character models to be around 6 foot tall, then this equals to about 1.83 metres in height, so 5 metres is less than the length of 2 and half human characters measured from head to toe.

Anyway, I’ll give Kait/Infiltrator more of a go. But at present, this is what I think.

2 Likes

I like the new style even though it takes some time getting used to. It’s much more like the scout class from Gears 4. In my opinion she can’t contribute as much to Kestrels, Guardians or Bastions as before but on the other hand there is 4 others in the team that hopefully can. Also the running around style gets a little harder from wave 40 and upwards on master, or maybe it’s just me lacking the skills of rolling and wall bouncing.

Captureaerghehgt3

This is the picture i put together. TC micheal said in a stream that this map was 50m wide. the red circles are 5m, yellow are 10m and cyan are 15m.

My old Kait “camping” at position 1 could start to bleed enemies at around B, with no bleed/damage for enemies at C with the overkill. Enemies would tend to stay in cover around A, B and C. 15m would probably be back to old Kait. At 5m you can only really start bleed when the enemies are on the stairs . If youve got a barrier down there then you can only really bleed the enemies after theyve got through the barrier. Often players will lay out barriers “vertically” - and barriers tend to be 5m long. So again you have to wait until the enemies are part way through the barriers before starting to bleed them. 10m looks like a better compromise.

The buff to reaper has flushed out Kait campers into run and gunners. This style of play is more akin to the PvP style - so i think its trying to encourage PvP players into PvE. As long as they invest thier gears coins into the stim cards it shoul be ok. But if there is a bunch of PvP Kait players going DBNO on master horde runs across the map its just going to frustrate everyone.

Loosening the range to 10m-15m would go towards appeasing the old style players, and add to the variety of how to play as Kait in the higher wave master horde runs.

8 Likes

As a Kait player before the nerf, I have to say that the 5m limitation is probably for the best. At her height, Kait was essentially a sniper. Overkill shots to the head on Scions could kill in two full shots (so technically four) with bleed damage from far away. I never had to leave cover, which defeats the point of the class.

I’d prefer 6-7m instead since 5 seems very short, but now I’m forced to run around the map getting kills and I prefer it.

1 Like

I like the change. It requires a change to the gameplan, and possibly makes her slightly worse/harder to use overall, but I feel then changes are very much in line with what her capabilities were supposed to be. This way is more fun than the previous overkill sniper character.

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She’s worse in Horde now since Exe rules prevent her from moving on to the next enemy after bleeding someone. In Escape she’s basically Shotgun-Lahni now.

2 Likes

I thought the 5m were gonna be an issue, but it’s definitely not. Once she gets that kill within the 5m, she can head towards the next enemy; rinse and repeat. Those 3 stim cards give her a significant advantage for chaining enemies. I don’t really see the need for 10m+, personally.

As long as you have her movement speed high, she can close the gap to any enemy, and it does require good timing. Additionally, if you run into multiple enemies aiming at you at once it’ll definitely get tough to manage, regardless of skill

First and foremost, great in-game representation of the meters.

I forgot to mention in my initial post that when I mentioned 15m I was referring mainly towards when she add her movement speed perk [at least level 4 (haven’t tested the actual level, but that’s my guesstimate)] . The ground she covers keeps her chaining her stim. So, the 15m can benefit this new Kait also, especially after viewing your picture.

I never thought about this. I wouldn’t be surprised if this has truth to it, because the way she is now definitely reminds me of a PvP style of play.

If you want the Overkill to remain effectively useless, and the class to be a one trick pony only, go ahead and defend it all you want.

I’m not a fan of it at all, no matter how it’s put, and only plan to play the class to reach level 20.

2 Likes

The overkill isn’t useless at all. I utilize it with the cloak, mainly against bosses - 10x damage initially, and everything else after that bleed damage. I like it better then the old Kait, and I thought the old Kait was a one-trick pony (cloak) also, just as I think this one is also (stim).

The Gnasher does exactly the same with higher point blank range damage and no loss in pellet accuracy.

And people who only ever used the shotguns to get the cloak back for meatshield cheesing every Drone in existence were oblivious to the fact that they could be very well used primarily as a killing tool. Both of them.

You have valid points but do keep in mind that even when I maxed out Kait I was able to snipe with the overkill.

And although you mention an alternative to just nerf the damage itself I think that this is a disservice because her gameplay is all about sneaking up on people and sneak arresting them. If you ever played fallout with a sneak build this is basically what they were aiming for and it’s amazing. Her damage output is almost higher DEPENDING on the scenario. Especially on boss waves. Granted now you actually do have to use her as a cqc sneak character. But that was the intended effect in the first place.

nerfing her damage all together would not be good because then when you are close to the enemy it’s not as big of a pay off.

What they changed with her is truly great. And I’ll tell you unless it’s flying enemies most will die right away from the initial shot out of the ultimate due to the new passive change AND for regular kills the bleed is still more than enough up close with regular use. You just have to read lightly. But this playstyle and class is now more on par with others and justifies the damage.

No longer is gears just JD Kait Jack and Del with a miscellaneous class as the 5th. All classes (excluding promotional) are viable classes 100% and honestly I give TC so much respect for going that route instead of just settling.

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I thought through both Operations 3 and 4 alot of balancing was done and many more characters/classes had become viable. Some characters still needed a little something, and some elements of it have been addressed by TC in Op 5, but some haven’t. It may be because I pretty much never play Horde in public lobbies - I pretty much always play with friends, but we’ve been able to mix things up alot - runs with no JACK, runs with no JD, no Marcus, no bleed-cards etc. Obviously public lobbies are a different matter, but I always felt most characters were viable to varying extents.

Oh yeah they definitely were made more viable mostly in operation 4. But im referring to horde in custom lobbies on master.

Sure you could mix and match. But even then it was still very clear you’d be better off with the same jd,jack,del,kait and whatever for the 5th class.

Now that Kait was adjusted like JD it makes the advantages a lot more in line with other classes.

I haven’t run a horde match with a jack in a while. The taps have completely replaced his need. Even in master a tap or two are manageable.

I wouldn’t totally agree with that. I think Del is the better engineer than Baird; and JD is a low-skill and low-effort-use character but Keegan still had very significant advantages and strengths over him.

Marcus was very overpowered. And I’ve outscored many JD players using Fahz (and have seen other players do this with Fahz too).

Clayton may lack DPS, but makes up for it in other ways.

Op 3-4 definitely closed the gap between the strongest and the weakest characters. Op 5 has helped some of the others even more - like Mac. I genuinely believe that Kait’s changes were overkill and other alternatives could have been more effective. I’m more of the mindframe to buff others to put them on a level playing field. I just find Kait’s new changes a bit limiting because it’s pretty much a pure-close quarter combat class now, whereas previously it allowed for both close and mid-range.

Unfortunately I have a bad habit of not upgrading the perks

I agree with this, but I was just speaking on what I use the overkill for now. And, also, it’s usage is mainly when my gnasher ammo gets pretty low, and I need to control a crowd after exiting cloak.

I agree with this. I’ve always thought the overkill had to much mid-to-high range. Looking at @GCE chart, the overkill was able to inflict damage at the 15m range.

Trust me, I was the exact same way also, for a while lol. Increase her movement speed to about level 4 and see how she fairs against enemies within 10m

I think the maximum range might have been more than that. I know there’s a point where the Overkill literally does no damage to enemies, but I’m not sure what the range is precisely. I think it might be around the 25 metre mark (but the damage is obviously tiny). I think the Overkill and Kait’s skills need some tuning for sure. Maybe TC will change it, maybe they won’t. I suppose higher skilled players will be able to make good use of Kait which isn’t necessarily a bad thing overall. I mean, Fahz needs a higher level of skill comapred to say, JD or Keegan. But then I don’t think the game should just be tailored toward those with high skill. The moderate and lower skilled players need some characters/classes that they can enjoy too.

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Yes, I think think the overkill does no damage at around 25m+. From my picture, at position 1 you can still damage enemies at B but not at C. I know on blood drive runs, if Kait is on the first level on one side and the team put up a barrier at the bottom of the opposite sides stairs - the overkill does no damage to enemies in that barrier.

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