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[Main] Ranking System Discussion, and Feedback

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(DAVID THE CLOWN) #1835

Nope. I’m far from that D…
If it weren’t for the stupid time difference we could play more often. But I usually don’t get on till 8-9pm EST on the weeekends


(Krylon Blue) #1836

@III_EnVii_III said the majority of his friends. I’m not sure why you’re assuming you’re part of this exclusive “friends” group but you may want to check yourself at the door. :yum:


(DAVID THE CLOWN) #1837

I am Envii’s favoritest person in the world Steve. Shut your mouth :unamused:


(SUPASONIXSEREAL) #1838

There are so many negatives about this ranking system (very unbalanced matchmaking, penalising rather than rewarding players, having to play and win a ridiculous amount of games to rank up etc.) That it’s taken a lot of the fun out of playing gears if you take it seriously. There’s gotta be something better


(III EnVii III) #1839

You either have the skill or you don’t.

Some will naturally take steps to improve.

Some will hit a ceiling they cannot get above.

That’s how a skilled based system works.


(Drinkands im) #1842

I have been playing just KOTH and Gnashers for about 3 weeks now. I honestly don’t think I have seen a better ranking system in a game. Does the matchmaking issue mismatches from time to time? Sure. But most of the time it matches fair matches. When its a mismatch you usually dont lose anything by playing it. If anything it will make you better. If you win a mismatch you go up dramatically. So i just want to emphasize I dont understand the complaints with the ranking system.


(CombinedManx705) #1843

Gears of war 4 pack new i n may


(DigitalBuddha14) #1846

Dont worry about it man. Gears is a tough crowd. Been playing since one. I got my last stand thick skin cards on lol.


(GnasherisT) #1850

True. However problems occur aroumd diamond stages.


(Drinkands im) #1851

Okay upon further evaluation I do have a few complaints about the ranking system.

  1. if you are destroying your opponent so bad and someone rage quits on the opposing team you most likely gain nothing.
  2. if you under perform down 5v4 you can still lose Rank %.
  3. If someone is just sitting at Spawn effectively you are outnumbered and there is no way for the system to determine this. Not sure if any thing can really be done about this one, but it is annoying.

(theshieguy) #1852

Yeah, that’s all well and good but none of that info touches on the lopsided matchmaking I’ve been dealing with for weeks now. I’m currently Onyx 2 in Arms Race and maybe 25% of the 200+ matches I’ve played this season have felt “balanced.” In most of the games I play, I either have to carry low rank teammates or hang back and play conservatively to constantly revive and cover fire for teammates that play like Rambo.

In the case of the former, it’s usually a game that is either full of Bronze and Silver players that I have no business being matched up with or lower ranked players on my team that get destroyed for an entire game against Onyx and Diamond players.

Regarding the latter, if I’m in a game where I have to babysit, chances are my numbers aren’t going to be amazing. I might score somewhere second or third on the team on the scoreboard, but the game is actively holding my unimpressive stats against me. I can’t push fights and get kills if my teammates are constantly running into enemy gunfire and not spotting enemies, not using cover or not being aware of their surroundings to watch a flank.

Meanwhile, the try-hard on the team who has managed to make his K/D look nice while giving up more than a few unnecessary kills gets MVP. So you have a system that rewards careless gameplay, punishes players for being more conservative yet efficient and then also punishes you when teammates are thrown into matches above their skill level.

And that word: skill level, I don’t think it means what the matchmaking (and probably the ranking system) ACTUALLY measures. Wins, nice, consistent and positive K/Ds…yeah, numbers are cute, but beyond superficial stats, what is the ranking actually measuring?

Is it accounting for teammates who consistently spot enemies in almost/every match? NO! Is it accounting for teammates that can watch and cover a flank? NO! Is it accounting for average number of revives per game and matching people that way? Highly unlikely. This little beauty happened because none of my four teammates bothered to cover any flank the enemy team pushed in three rounds. Also, only one of the four of them (NOT the Diamond player) bothered spotting enemies at all during the entire match.

From a superficial standpoint, the matchmaking probably thought this was a “balanced” match (the 5% rank I lost probably says so too) but, again, if teammates at an Onyx+ level are incapable of spotting enemies and watching a flank, why should MY rank suffer? Why am I placed in a game with these players? Oh, because they get a lot of kills? SO WHAT? How are they helping the team? How is a teammate who doesn’t spot enemies, doesn’t use cover and runs into gunfire, constantly dying helping the team? I’m in a lose/lose situation. If we win the match, I probably get nothing because it’s “expected,” but when I lose with a terrible K/D like that one, all of a sudden “I’m playing above my skill level.”

There are a number of nuisances that could be made to the ranking and NEED to be made to the matchmaking. One suggestion I would make would be to keep unranked players out of general lobbies until they get a seasonal rank. Half the time, these are players that I can tell aren’t above Silver in whatever behind-the-scenes numbers are running. Their bad performances almost always cause me losses and eventually rank % decreases. And, most of the time, these are the players that purposely AFK to troll for free enemy kills or quit due to matches being too difficult. If these players are only allowed to play against other unranks at the start, that cuts down the encounters with bad teammates.

On top of that, have players play with opponents at their color level or no higher than one color above. So if you are, say, Onyx in another playlist and you place in Bronze 2 after 5 placement matches, you play against people who are either at Bronze or Silver until you rank into Silver, then Silver or Gold opponents until you hit Gold. And so on. No mixing ranks. So it’s either Bronze and Bronze or Bronze and Silver. All similar colors on one team, when possible. If players have higher SR, match them all together against a higher color team and both sides get rank progress for a win.

This prevents a Bronze/Silver player from being put in a lobby against Onyx or Diamond opponents. If a player really IS at the level to play at the Onyx that he/she already has in another playlist, ranking up from Bronze to Onyx would not take long. If a player is truly Bronze/Silver, the games being matchmade will not negatively affect players at the lower skill level. And if squads are playing with mixed ranks, base the matchmaking by the highest visible rank in the squad. Fill any empty team slots with players one visible color below the highest person in the squad, as long as those additional randoms player have SR close to players on that squad.

This suggestion eliminates the possibility of being matched into “uneven” games and every match played is a chance to rank up for both teams. So now EVERY game I play actually counts for something. I’m not frozen on percentage for “playing as expected” when I win five games in a row. I’m now given the opportunity to outperform people at my even SR in every match. No more matches against low levels that are a waste of time and do nothing but potentially HURT my numbers if people quit or AFK. EVERY MATCH COUNTS!

Last but not least, within TSR base every player on INDIVIDUAL SR when matchmaking. 10 individual player numbers should be as close as possible in every match, within the visible rank restrictions I previously mentioned. Rounding team numbers and doing predictions has already created way too many uneven games to even out multiple high rank players with Bronzes, Silvers and Golds. The math doesn’t add up. Accept it, scrap the current system and move on.

Below are the last three matches I played on Monday last week. All three of them were terribly uneven. And, yes, I lost percentage on the two losses. I played in a squad with Painedlocket1 on the first game and he switched his profile to Monterary on the other two. This is what “working as intended” has looked like for me all season.

One person was AFK on the enemy team, and my three Stooge teammates STILL found a way to screw up an easy win and die twice as much as my friend and I did. I lost 2% rank.

Low ranked lobby that I should not have been put into. No rank movement, of course.

And another game with useless teammates…who managed to score better from running around the map the entire match. The top unranked on the enemy team was a Diamond player. Again, look at the death count. I lost 3% rank.

Bonus: my most recent match from last night. The two top guys on the enemy team were an unranked Diamond duo (or high Onyx with one decked out in Diamond skins). Anyway…dead weight strikes again.

I realize that devs at TC are fascinated with the current prediction system, but it just doesn’t work. I shouldn’t be at the mercy of the matchmaking because I’m constantly winning games I’m predicted to win or penalized when I lose because I have dead weight on my team. With the system above, I would never run into half of the players that I get dragged down by and every match would be an opportunity to rank up, if my personal performance is impressive enough.


(DAVID THE CLOWN) #1853

The matchmaking seems to be especially off this season. Just last night I went up against a full stacked (and toxic) Diamond squad (they all had D skins but were Onyxed ranked). I was playing solo and am a Onyx 1. Needless to say, I put the game up for the night after that match


(theshieguy) #1854

You were probably thrown into the first game the matchmaking could find. So your Onyx 1 likely balanced out whatever other higher teammates were on your team for the skill level numbers to be “even” between both teams. If you had a team full of lower levels than Onyx, they either have higher SR that put them at Onyx 1+ or the matchmaking opened the “skill allowance” it has that made both teams as “even” as possible.

Or in other words, it threw you to the wolves, balanced or not, (probably to save time on matchmaking) and wished you good luck.


(III EnVii III) #1855

1). That round still counts. It’s only for the following round that it’s readjusted. So in effect, someone quitting early on can give you massive boost if you take advantage and start ramping up the kills. The following round will rightfully not be worth much as a 5v4 isn’t much of a challenge in modes like KOTH. I’ve only ever won about 3 games when as a 4 against 5.

2). Yes of course. You are always in competition against your own team mates and the opposition. Being 5v4 is probably a good chance for the 4 to rack up kills themselves as the round is almost definitely lost, TDM can be different scenario so I’m talking KOTH here, which means that over performing as a 4 can still help that team get something from the match. Naturally this is harder to do. As a 5, I would heavily switch to Rifle play. As the 4, I’d aim to secure the power weapons or at least stay together and push together.

3). True, this is a difficult one but then it’s something we all experience. If that person stays idle then they get kicked for the following round. If they abuse the game, and keep the character moving but not playing in order to not get kicked then it’s not much you can do except report the player, capture some video evidence and send it to TC. Of course you can avoid that player if you match with them against by “dashboarding it”.

All in all, these situations equally affect many players. Now that it’s almost impossible to stack as 5 for me, I have to accept this reality even more so thanks to TCs backwards thinking.


(III EnVii III) #1856

There can be no perfect system.

I could lose a game I was predicted to easily win simply because of the server / ping.

I could lose because one guy played 10% and went afk the 90%.

Or that only ever used Gnasher and never crossed.

Went headfirst every single time.

So, if the mode allows it, the best option is to always stack up in a 5.

It’s the best solution.

Now that you cannot do that in KOTH if you are highly ranked, it’s even more chance based and luck based.

However - no matter how bad your teammates are, you have to aim and try to be consistent yourself.

If you can tell you just won’t win a match, you have to do the alternative and just go for kills.

Now I don’t care for Arms Race so I do not have experience in that mode however in KOTH - I have yet to go down when playing Solo and losing as long as I personally performed among the top 1-3 players in that match.

If I outplayed them by a good enough margin and lost then nearly every time I followed up a win in the next match meant I gained %.


(Drinkands im) #1857

You are right, and I still think the ranking system is one of the betters i have experienced. It gives you something to drive towards. Can you explain the ping/server issues? I have experienced matches where my shots appear to be doing inconsistent damage compared to other matches. My ping is always around the same, but it does seem that if others have way different ping it makes an impact.


(III EnVii III) #1858

Well, the ping issue is two-fold.

1). I have either accepted high ping to get games or the game has decided to put me on a far out server.

So, relatively speaking, low ping is best.

To the EU server I ping a solid 5ms.

Normally, everyone within the EU server is 30ms or under.

This provides a fair match up.

When I accept a higher ping because of TCs Strict Matchmaking, I have to play on US Servers and accept that I will at best have 55-65ms and at worst have upto 180ms depending on what sever it pulls.

This can easily decide the outcome of a match.

Whereby my Skill will be transferable and more fair and even on the EU servers with EU players, on other servers, a team of local players against me and perhaps a combination of my EU friends will naturally hold a advantage - enough to sway the results of a match.

The game cannot account for this.

Equally, it could be me and a friend in 2v2 being drawn against and onto US West Severs with two players from there.

Inherently it will be extremely difficult because of ping.

Likewise, drawing them onto EU will mean a high ping for them, skewing it still.

2). This is the Lag Compensation and the way the game deals with it.

Much has been said and TC have stated that they believe pings up to 250ms are acceptable for online play.

However - players and myself have noticed that high pings and fluctuating pings can have an advantage.

I notice in a low ping lobby that when a high pinger or fluctuating ping player is introduced, the game is less stable and less accurate with shots and damage.

Sometimes, the high pinger can gain the ability to sponge shots while be at an advantage against low pingers.

I have experienced this myself as a “higher pinger” - between 60-90ms - as well as the receiving end as a 5ms player.

So, what’s the best scenario?

Everyone is under 30-40ms ping and that the ping is as stable as possible.

EU games where everyone is 5-30ms run far better than US matches where pings are all over the place.

So the very makeup of a teams pings and the server can win you matches.


(theshieguy) #1859

The suggestion I made above would basically wipe out the prediction system, so every game would be about personal performance over which team is predicted to win. Personal performance would be all that counts in every game. Both teams would always be evenly matched individually, so if one player is say, AFK or not pulling their weight, the system would easily be able to detect by scores or high death count. Players who get MVP or at least performed well would never lose percentage and the person with low numbers would be the only player in danger of losing rank.

So even with my not-so-great K/D in essentially a 2v5 with two teammates protecting their numbers, a game like this:

…would never count against me, because the systems would know I’m a man short. Currently, the ranking only sees that as me being on a 5-Man and being fourth place on the team. It doesn’t factor in people who PURPOSELY AFK and, in my experience, every person guilty of this behavior is someone unranked. The bad players in general…always unranked. Take them out of the equation and that solves the problem (mostly).

Now, every playlist relies on players earning their rank from the bottom up. No carry-overs from other playlists for placement matches mixed in with people who already placed. You start at the bottom and your SR only counts for matchmaking. The averaging of five players collectively is GONE. Five players with the same SR and similar TSR make up each match until you hit your ceiling.

TC can also wipe out the region lock and cap the ping limit. So now, in your case, you can play on the US East server to your heart’s content, as long as four other players with crossplay turned on match your SR. Whether it’s in the UK or wherever, if five other people can be found that match up to your stack’s SR, with a decent ping cap, you can find a game.

That, Sir, is a perfect system. Or, rather, one that’s close to perfect. Every match is even, every great performance counts and if a player hits a ceiling, the game will never punish him by matching lesser players to even out a collective team number. Every game is an opportunity to become a better, consistent player.

To your point about ranking down, I suspect that the reason you and a few others in this thread don’t have this issue is because your SR is crazy high from long term data and a few disappointing matches won’t negatively affect your numbers behind the scenes. In my case, I mostly placed in Bronze ranks in the past, got to Silver 1 in Guardian in season 0, a mix of Bronze and Silver after that and I peaked at Gold 1 in season 4. I think I got Silver 1 in KOTH last season. But Horde was always my thing, so I was never worried about grinding MP.

Anyway, my SR from all of that…mediocrity is likely coming back to haunt me like a ghost of Christmas past. The system thinks that I peaked at Gold two seasons ago, but I didn’t play 200+ games two season ago, like I have this season. I’m consistently performing well in Onyx 2 but I can’t get quality matches to save my life. That business of freezing on losses stopped once I promoted from Onyx 1.

Every loss I get counts against me now. The screencaps above…all of them have cost me rank. And I KNOW it’s the bad teammates. But even with me trying my best, like in this game:

I still lose percentage. Somehow, even though I pushed this far mostly solo this season, with occasional duo help, the game still thinks that I’m some Gold scrub. But it’s a catch-22 because not only is the game NOT giving me better teammates (if it assumes I need to be carried) but I get players with 20-30 ranked wins to their name on my team against Onyx and Diamond slayers with 1000+ wins.

And it’s so frustrating to see a Diamond needing spawn protection to best me or needing to push me with a second player, only to see my teammates run at him and his stack and give them free kills. It is exhausting and demoralizing. Arms Race is a very unique mode in that it rewards you for being a solid all-around player. Hitting your shots and having great movement and cover use gets you wins and MVPs. Running around like it’s Gnasher-only KOTH gets you losses…and unranks seem to have the two modes confused.


(III EnVii III) #1860

This is how it works anyway, win or lose, it’s your own personal performance that is going to count towards your rank.

It just somewhere along the way, the team makeup will allow you to win and sometimes you will lose.

The system from what I understand tries to go for a 50-50 matchup, so naturally, you win some, you lose some.

But you can gain % from a loss, just like you can from a Win.

Again, everyone faces quitters and AFK players.

I have said, the only way to avoid it is to play in a 5.

If you choose otherwise, you will get this. Same for everyone.

But the teams are made up of individuals and given the team score.

The lower ranks really bring down the team score.

In effect, having the low ranks against average ranks means if you can perform well, you will get the boost in %.

And it will still expect a certain performance from the AFK and low players anyway, so if you go beyond yours, you will see a positive impact.

Never losing percentage is difficult one because no one I believe performs 100% as expected or better every single game. There are times when you will loose a little for a loss.

However - the amount of matches where even when I lose and I keep my % and rank intact are too numerous to prove that your performance is what matters, even in losses.

I have said this to you before.

I don’t get your point here, yes a player is AFK - but you still did the worst out of 9 players in terms of kills?

I imagine you would be predicted to do better.

This cannot work in the real world.

Everyone would have to search solo in hopes of being matched within the limit.

What happens if I want to play with a friend or a few friends several ranks below with a far lower TSR?

When I go into Matchmaking, it then had to find almost exact matches.

With a low population base, it would be extremely difficult to find matches.

Take my situation, before Season 6, I could easily find game in KOTH.

Now that’s it’s strict and trying to do exactly what you say, it’s ridiculously hard to find games even Solo.

Region Lock and Ping Limit should be in place, for sure, if the search returns no games in your own region with a couple of minutes.

Expanding player pool should look at pings and skill.

However, again, mixed stacks to a big degree or very highly skilled stacks would make it too difficult to make what you are saying work.

Or if you have a friend who is really high ping, how do you filter that out? Not allow them to squad up?

I’m just giving you reality here.

There is no perfect system because the playerbase is way too small in Gears 4.

Squads can be mixed a lot before you even begin Matchmaking.

When me an my friends hit Diamond 5 - we are 0.1% of the population, or thereabouts.

Trying to find 5 others who are purely Diamond is a rare occurrence.

You have to accept a mix.

This way, the lesser teams have everything to gain and we have everything to lose.

But when you are at the top, you can only then look same or look down.

No, it’s not bad teammates alone.

The bigger picture is, your own contribution.

You know, I have gone into a Gold and Below Lobby with one of my Diamond 3 friends in a mode like KOTH and we both dominated?

Like 40+ kills each in the fastest match of KOTH.

2 of us won the match.

Our team mates did hardly anything - we didn’t need them too.

When you are playing in mixed games like you are, if you play solo, you need to be the one coming top or near the top no matter what.

You say my TSR must be crazy high not to go down on losses.

This is a double edged sword.

I am expected to perform at a very high level even with all the problems you describe - it’s the same issues I face too when playing solo.

There are matches where I’ve got 60 kills, my 3 team mates 30-40 and one guy 9 kills with only 2 downs.

You could lose 2-1 in that situation.

However - I still had to hit a crazy high kill count not to go down.

Had I been mediocre, or not done well, I would have seen a drop for sure or my TSR would have dropped so when I try and push for higher rank, I have to rebuild it.

Remember - by giving you better teammates - it also is a double edged sword.

If your teams performances average out across the games - you don’t go up in rank.

I’ve said it before - you are competing against your own team mates too.

So that’s why you get the countless posts about “winning” and not going up.

Because winning isn’t everything if there is no stand out performance behind it.

And what you describe, that kind of play style is how randoms play.

There’s no communication, no tactics, no thinking.

So all in all:

Focus on your personal performances. Yes it’s hard to play well with randoms. But it’s not impossible. Your wins and losses will even out if you make sure you pull your weight. You should also try and be the reason why you win matches.

Everyone who plays solo faces your issues. It is not unique to you.

Better team mates won’t solve the issue. Yes, you may win more, even 100% of matches, but then you won’t be the reason for it if your team mates are “better”. This is a double edged sword.

Stack up and play in a 5-Man. This is the best way to play. 5 players of similar skill with mics. No frustrations and you can give it your all and have trust every match. I also enjoy it more this way.

Don’t focus solely on rank. Getting the top is more fun at the journey then it is achieving your desired rank. It’s almost like you’ve completed the game. People then get anxious about losing rank and they want to “protect” it. This then takes away from the fun of the game.

I have also mentioned that personal performances are all that counts in the wins and losses - you will win more with lower ranked and skilled teammates the higher your rank and skill is. And you will lose more and struggle in matches with weaker team mates when your own rank and skill is lower.

What you propose, a direct 1-2-1 system of Matchmaking wouldn’t work in the real world because you are squading up with the players searching at the time.

Also, it would stop and make it difficult to team up with varied players or find games to exactly match your own teams squad.

Even in an evenly matched game, if one side achieves that with a stack and full comms, the other random and not speaking, the stack will seem like it’s better because potentially the comms could make the difference in a 50-50 game.


(Drinkands im) #1861

I play KOTH with a group of my friends which I leap frogged in Ranking. They all started playing the game long ago. So I just want you to see this match which garnered me nothing. Now i realize im higher rank than everyone in the match. But everyone else on my team is basically overmatched for their counter part. Some part of me rather them match me against a Diamond and even match the rest of my squad. Granted we still utterly dominated, but i get nothing for it. Listen I get it im at a point where I probably need to play solo to go up, but the matchmaking is a little odd in the fact that it calculates I can basically take on multiple lower ranked opponents. Which for the most part is true, but not always.