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[Main] Ranking System Discussion, and Feedback

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(III EnVii III) #1562

This makes zero sense.

I don’t agree with forcing players not to 5 stack to prove skill or to accept vastly inferior team mates for the same reason.

Nor do I believe there are any number of people who “don’t deserve Diamond” if they have it.

I’ve used these example before,

You wouldn’t watch an eSports event and expect OpTiC Gaming to run as a 3 or 4 and then for the sake of proving their skill, have them pick the last player or two from the audience at random and then go with it.

You wouldn’t say a sports team are too strong and they have to pick 20-40% of their players at random from the general population to prove they can still win.

I know what you are saying in principle but in practice, it’s a horrible way to play as it just leads to frustration, not proving any kind of skill.

And in my case, as I stated, it’s now near on impossible to find games.


(aLvGioooSquad) #1563

the ranking system is very broken because, when you have a winning streak you do not raise anything and you only lose one and fall considerably in rank


(Gyroscopic Jim) #1564

Your right my post was not very well constructed. I do sympathise with your situation. TC have applied an arbitrary threshold to each rank tier. There are going to be people who are perfectly capable of getting into a tier but cant because there isn’t any room. It’s one in, one out, when the tier has filled up. I think this explains why there are so many posts along the lines “I have won 10 games in a row against higher ranked players and not moved up”. They are stuck because their skill level is about the same as a ton of other people. This issue is going to be most acute at the onyx diamond threshold. An element of luck is likely all thats needed to tip the balance when you are talking about the top 1% of players. I suspect the reason TC have seasons is after a period the ranking system just grinds to a halt, so it needs a reset. A decent ranking system should give the same rank to equally skilled players, not reward those that get an early start. Given the amount of variables i doubt its possible to create a system that can track skill and feel satisfying to everyone. Rank needs to be binned as a failed idea. Replace it with a Leaderboard for Gears5


(artemnet) #1565

Ok Gearheads, can you explain this case.
I always play with my buddy, i am in onyx 1-3, and he is silver 1-3.

  1. For example we have a matchmaking with all onyx-gold players and my buddy is the only silver.
    We did the match and i am get the boost of my rate, but my buddy does not.
    This is because he underperformed according to other players in match?

  2. Matchmaking with different skilled players: onyx, gold, silver.
    We did the match and no one get a rating update.
    This is because our team was preddicted to win with big chances, so almost no rating impact here?

So how my buddy can broke this circle? Everytime we win he dont get rating because we are playing vs low skilled team or we play in high skill lobby?


(III EnVii III) #1566

I disagree,

They get stuck because their skill level or performances are no longer rising, its natural to hit a ceiling. Some people can play and get to the top very quick and others just can’t.

Also depends on the squad and how much the other players are influencing the win.

You can always force yourself into Diamond - if you are good enough.


(Omen LP) #1567

The ranking system appears to recognize and reward a particular style of play. A very aggressive style, with a lot of participation in the game. Basically what it calls “performance”. In that most recent news release they did say the definition of “performance” varies from play mode to play mode, and takes different elements into account differently, in different play modes (kills, assists, breaks, caps, etc - all are looked at. We don’t know exacty HOW, the details are hidden, but they look at everything). So since we don’t know exactly HOW they weigh all the elements (it’s got to be a weighted average of some kind), it’s almost impossible to look at a score sheet and know how your performance would be judged…

Ok, some situations are clear (if you’re a the bottom of the list, then you clearly didn’t performance well; if you have the most of everything then you clearly performed the best), most will be somewhere in the middle, where the devil-is-in-the-details of their hidden algorithms will take over, and cause you to pull out your hair in frustration as why you are seeing (or not seeing) the movement you are, in your rank :slight_smile:

Without defending the system, I agree with a lot of @III_EnVii_III has said (no, not all, haha, but a lot. I think he should do a thread summarizing what he has to say repeatedly in this thread, and then have TC sticky it and lock it. No one will read 1400 msgs in this thread, but they can read ONE msg in a locked thread). @TC_Octus or @EVIL_0NE , how abou t it?

You have to be an aggressive, active participant in the game, to move up in rank, and to maintain your rank in face of losses.

I AM speaking from personal experience. I played a very passive support type role for a long time, and I both really liked it, and i was really good at it. But that is not what the ranking system rewards…

So, I created a new account ( to remove the weight of the long term trend of mid range performance, and start new), I started to play in a much more aggregive way, and the rank has been steadily moving up. And losses don’t hurt…

We lost the first three games after moving into Onyx, and my percentage didn’t drop at all: because I still had very active games, with lots of participation. Then when we started to win, I immediately moved up. The initial move up was big, leading me to think that my performance in the losses ‘scheduled’ me for a move up, and I just needed to win one for the visible rank to be able to catch up to the hidden one…

in the past, before learning how this works, I was puzzled by the lack/slow movement… Now, haha, with the different play style, I am sometimes surprised by the movement when I expected none… As much as they say that you have to win against people you are expected to lose to (which makes sense) I think individual performance still trumps/counts, even in those matches… one recent example follows. I did NOT expect to get anything from this game - we appeared to be higher ranked, AND we were in a 5 person squad… But I moved, more than 10% I think…

Here is an EXCELLENT video, from a D5, on how to “get better”, and what it means to “get better”. I love some of the things he says, and I think they are all on point, re rank/etc… he talks about “Diamond” players specifically, but you don’t have to be one or aspire to one to appreciate what he’s talking about.

People who are complaining that they aren’t moving up in rank, watch this video and then be honest with yourself after that, are you REALLY doing what he’s talking about you needing to do, to “get better”?


(III EnVii III) #1568

This is true, as are most sports where the most physical, capable or forward movers, match winners are regarded as the “best” or most skillful.

It might be that you’ve got a full team of trainers, coaches, nutritionists or whatever assisting people around you but the ones that go and do the job, in this game - get the kills - are subsequently and rightly rewarded with the high ranks.

Now game IQ is needed - you can frustrate an outright slayer or subdue them however if they have both knowledge of positioning and knowledge of game mechanics combined with slaying abilities then they will be a unstoppable force. I know players like this that will always get the most kills every single match.

Again, here I focus on killing the most, dying the least and playing the objective enough to win.

KOTH is what I played the most. At first I would ALWAYS have the most caps.

@DAVID_THE_CLOWN was shocked in our match when I very quickly and easily racked up 8 Caps when the match had only just started.

The thing is though, my Cap average is 12 per game (using stats off the website of matches player agaisnt total caps).

Now this, I believe is quite a high figure.

However - when I was very Cap heavy and focused on breaks too, I didn’t go up much at all when my friends much higher ranked were getting far, far less.

So I changed my playstyle - TC confirmined points themselves have bearing on rank - it’s the stats they track.

So getting a handful of caps to ensure the team wins but slaying out every match is the best way to rank up and this is how the majority of top players are.

I’m sure they have a small weight but at the higher end of the skill range, it’s the kills that are key.

Why?

If your in the middle - as in average - then you played as expected which wouldn’t warrant a move.

You neither did bad nor top.

It’s only the ones that played beyond their skill level that see a increase because it’s warranted.

If you did this and came average then you can still move up sure but again - for the top ranks you need to be top.

I think it would have been a great idea to have a short video make by TC that very simply outlines what happens and how it works - as in - get the kills, win the rounds - play the objective - go up.

Right in the Gears Menu.

Or even make it compulsory to watch before starting MP.

Would solve so many questions and frustrations in a quick 5 minute video because I think, to me anyway, the streams when they talk about Rank make a lot of coherent and logical sense as to what the system is.

I think in text, people still don’t get past why they are “stuck” - why they aren’t getting Diamond or whatever. Not everyone can and not everyone will - but people can’t accept this and think it’s broken or not working as a result. This is not the case.

TCs document they brought out is very much bloated and probably won’t even get read by much more then a handful of people.

It needs to be prominent.

I, for my part, have genuinely sought to help people understand but it is pretty much repetition:

1). You are playing in a stacked team and performing like everyone else so holding rank.

2). Playing with a stacked team who are ranked higher than you and so the system weights on those players being the reason to winning

3). Not showing an improvement over how you play so are holding rank

4). Not Been playing as expected but winning matches for whatever reason and so on the next loss, you see the hit in rank that your Skill Rating got.

5). The system has a very accurate picture of you and so you need to perform better to move anywhere.

Because this is a easier playstyle - it’s essential don’t get me wrong - but you have to see why this isn’t rewarded as much.

TC explicitly said the system rewards and all round player - someone who can do it all.

Playing assist is just one type of style where you sit back and don’t take as much risk, so this makes total sense.

A good performance in a loss is just as good as a good win in my opinion.

Imagine being Onyx 1 and the other four on your team being Onyx 3.

Now imagine you lose the match but come out on top of your team and easily outperform them.

Then you still have gained something in terms of showing the system you are better than where you are currently.

So the next win or the next few wins WITH SIMILAR PERFORMANCE means you will carry on seeing gains.

People often expect big gains for a one off win - this isn’t always the case.

You would have performed better than expected and got enough kills above everyone else to warrant a boost.

Remember - those may not be the true skill levels of the players either - they might be lower than what they actually are, so you are rewarded accordingly.

What the system doesn’t see or count is the big advantage your team had in terms of ping - you easily had the advantage over all of those players in that game.

This for me is a down to where the matches take place of course - home server I will always have the ping advantage. Anywhere else and I will be at a big disadvantage.

So maybe in terms of skill, the matchup was a good one.

In terms of fairness when it comes to lag - quite clearly your team had the advantage and more responsive guns.

But having said that, you can always help these situations.

Also note that the lower ranked you, the more chance of seeing big jumps in %. The higher up go, the more of a grind it is.

This is what the problem is most of time.

It’s either not understanding the system and false expectations as a result, or just simply not being good enough and being frustrated or expecting to go up.


(Laaaaaancer) #1569

Did this exact same thing recently. Similar results.


(III EnVii III) #1570

More than likely because when you have a brand new account - with stricter Matchmaking - you are able to dominate early on - giving you a quick boost, especially if you have been playing for a long time.

So this is normally why people will experience this, at least at first anyway plus I’m quite sure even when ranks reset, some past history of ranks is taken into account so this could be good or more frustrating.


(Laaaaaancer) #1571

Brand new account does factor in, I’m sure, but they’ve changed things since the last time I made a new account. You used to play noobs or really bad players at the start, but since they implemented the “level 20” before ranked, that doesn’t seem to be the case. In fact, the first placement game I was in had multiple diamonds on the opposing team. Have no idea how that worked. Surprised me.

Both my main and smurf are Onyx 3, but my smurfs percentage is higher and I am finding more sweaty opponents on it (so I think the background rank might be higher than my mains). But with my play style on the smurf, I am ending matches higher than I do on my main, but KD and win percentage is lower. So this leads me to think aggressive play is rewarded more than my usual support play. We’ll see. Experiment continues. But not until after I get those Phantom Black skins :smiley:


(III EnVii III) #1572

Again, there are many factors to consider, I kept it simple as to why.

And aggressive play has always been rewarded more than support play, TC have said it themselves, given the reasons and I’ve explained it above too.


(Laaaaaancer) #1573

I know. I’m agreeing that aggressive play is rewarded more and always has been.

When I used to be diamond, I thought the difference was because of my team and how they made it easier (which they did), but I’m realizing now I was more aggressive then. When my friends quit, and I had to play with randoms, I started a bad habit of playing more conservatively because you can’t trust randoms like you can trust your stack. And I realize that held me back.


(III EnVii III) #1574

It’s a lot harder to play aggressive Solo or without a team, although not impossible - but having a team definitely helps.

Now it’s more luck of the draw as to who is on your team.

What times do you normally play?


(Laaaaaancer) #1575

It varies due to my schedule, but most days I’m on around 9 or 10CST.


(D3ad1ych1ck3n) #1576

OK, I just barley won a match 5 minutes ago. I got MVP on my team and beat a Diamond tier 5 rank on the other team. You are telling me, that I only got a 10% boost from that win? I looked at my stats at like 60%. just finished my match. Refreshed the page and looked at my stats and it just went up 10%. How come when beating a Onyx player as a gold tier, you jump to like either 100% or like 30% something like that. I don’t get it. I just feel bummed out a bit especial getting MVP two wins in a row and beating a tier 5 Diamond player, and my boost went up by 10%. Please explain this to me. I am a Onyx tier 2 and was hopping to see at least 100% or at lest 80%. Oh well, if that is how it is, then more grinding. :frowning:


(III EnVii III) #1577

You don’t get drastic increasing after a couple of wins only - especially at Onyx 2 which is still considered relatively high.

And also, depends on how the match went as well, post some screenshots next time and we can get more information from that.


(ChochixBeaR) #1578

10%? I’d be happy to see 10%. At Onyx 3 I’m getting maybe 2% per win. :smiley:


(Electricb7) #1579

MVP most of the time in ranked KOTH. For 7 matches of kicking ■■■ and getting MVP most of them my rank did not go up a single digit. But if I loose one round it goes down 4 points?
Last season I was Onyx3 now I cant even get to Onyx2 even though I’m an experienced player. Can anyone explain this at all? My friends rank is climbing up even though I’m outperforming him in the matches. What gives?

We usually play with a stacked team of either 4 or 5 players if that helps.


(III EnVii III) #1580

Post screenshots of your games, then can see what’s going on :+1:


(Electricb7) #1581

You mean a screenshot of the stats at the end of matches?