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[Main] Ranking System Discussion, and Feedback

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(III EnVii III) #1508

Why is it unfair?

The one that slays the most will get to the top, naturally.


(Mr RBX) #1509

If this is actually how it works then it’s the dumbest and most obtuse ranking system i’ve ever seen in life and no wonder it drove away everyone that quit this game. Who had the bright idea that winning but not in the way the game “expects” you to win should be penalize you? You won but YOU DIDN’T WIN HARD ENOUGH AND STOMP ON THOSE SCRUBS so we’re gonna lower your internal MMR anyway. Yes every game has a hidden MMR along with a public rank symbol but jesus christ they aren’t thick headed enough to make the internal take away from what the player sees. That’s just asking to piss people off and make them not want to play. It also fosters terrible attitudes like yours in this community where its all about kills and looking good over the enemy and even your fellow teammates and not the thrill of just playing and having fun while also winning. You defending this crappy system for a dead game is sad.


(EikichiTv) #1510

I understand that it is a trainee who made the classification system but have validated something as absurd, it’s never seen for me. You said that the one who kills the most reaches the top, it’s wrong we could be MVP several game in the end in the end we won nothing we had the chance to not lose a point, because on 40 games 35 wins and 5 loses in the end the system retains just the 5 defeats. I honestly think you do not even know exactly how the system works.


(DAVID THE CLOWN) #1511

The mob despises you @III_EnVii_III.

Goodness, I always find it hilarious when people act like that towards a D5 lol :rofl:


(EikichiTv) #1512

On the league of legend the pros and the challengers are complain on the game so what you say does not make sense. You can be d5, pro, see even god. You can find that a system does not work properly .


(DAVID THE CLOWN) #1513

It’s not all that difficult to figure out, considering that TC has made if pretty clear. Now to be fair, Octus has admitted that it is not user friendly, but it is a good representation of where you are at, skill-wise. In fact, more often then not, your rank is lower then your skill rating.
For example, I usually plateau at around Onyx 1. My wins/losses and kills are all pretty equivalent. So even if I win a match as MVP, I could loose as the bottom player in the next. And the cycle repeats itself as long as I am still an Onyx skilled player.

If you consistently beat the odds as one of the top players, your rank will move up.


Since the past 3 days i dont earn rank for wins but drop points for loss
(III EnVii III) #1514

Because it’s a skill based system and not a progression based system.

So imagine 4 players do all the work and 1 player doesn’t do much, if at all.

Let’s say that means the 4 players are the best in the world and 1 player is just a average Gold / Onyx.

Now, does that 5th player deserve the same rank as the 4 players doing all the work?

No of course not, it would be false to give the 5th a similar rank because without the 4 players, he can’t play the same / win matches.

So the system looks at individual performance and if that person is getting hardly any kills and always coming at the bottom of the team, again, they won’t be gaining % because of the 4 people above them doing all the work and getting the win.

This is just one example.

You need performances with wins to go up.

I don’t really get what your saying, it isn’t very clear.

But what I think you are saying is someone has won 35 games and 5 loses and either goes down or doesn’t go up in Rank?

Something along those lines?

Here again you are CONFUSED about how the game works.

You could play 100 games and not go up.

Why?

Because it’s a SKILL based system.

If you are playing as expected in those 35 games that you won, or if you weren’t the one contributing to the win overall, then of course you won’t go up.

And if you see drops from a loss after a few wins in row, then quite frankly, you didn’t really contribute enough to warrant keeping that % - it’s basically looking at OTHER PLAYERS and evaluating how a person in that rank plays, you have to outplay them to move into that rank.

People don’t understand that the Diamond rank everyone wants is far different from the other rank. You can’t jusy “win” yourself there. You have to prove to have the SKILL to get there.

Aha, it’s a complex system that is easy to understand once you get your head around it and know exactly how it gives out percentage.

A lot of people just can’t accept not going up when they beat lower ranks, get carried by other players or simply believe they should be getting progression by playing.

The system is the same for everyone - it doesn’t pick and choose to get “stuck” for some and not for others.

And yet, the same questions keep getting asked and people say TC game up with a bad system.

Now, I’m not saying it’s perfect but you can definitely understand how it works.

TC has been extremely clear in the written article they made on the ranking system and also in the various videos. Ryan Cleven did a good job of describing how it works and how it moves people.

The hardest thing to do is to break into Diamond. There has to be a CLEAR skill difference between Onyx 3 90% to Diamond 1. In the past it’s even kept me on 99.98% Onyx 3 until I proved I should be going up and did so for 2-3 matches.

Pretty much.

TC have said it’s winning rounds and not winning matches alone.

Going 2-0 and getting the most kills plus a few more is easily the best way to rank up.

In 2v2 - I pretty much needed flawless 7-0 wins to get anything at all.

People either don’t want to accept it as it’s harder for some to get to the top and easier for others.


(EikichiTv) #1515

thanks


(theshieguy) #1516

Playing Ranked TDM recently has opened my eyes to a fundamental problem with Gears of War 4 multiplayer. Matchmaking in Ranked needs a COMPLETE overhaul for Gears 5. I’m sure any other work needed to fix this in the current game is probably out of the question, but I want to take some time to explain this in the HOPE that public matchmaking will MAYBE be fixed by the next game.

Ranked multiplayer, tiers, “skill level,” and your current rank standing are all based on numbers. The explanation has been said a million times: play well against people at higher ranks, wins games, MVP, consistently finish with a positive K/D and so on. All of that is numbers. Those numbers determine how fast you rank up in tiers from Bronze to Diamond.

But numbers are just that…numbers. Numbers might create a history of the stats of each player, but it DOESN’T give a very clear picture of PLAYSTYLE. What if I told you that people in Ranked have found ways to game the system? What if the numbers aren’t actually very accurate at all. Yes, numbers can predict which team will win or lose when creating a Ranked match, but numbers currently CAN’T determine the competency of a player’s skill as a TEAM player.

Here’s an example:

In this game, the guy on my team with the highest K/D went 19-2. Sounds impressive, right? I’m sure the ranking system thinks so. However, what the ranking system probably ISN’T going to factor in is exactly HOW he got all those kills. My fellow teammate spent both of the two rounds of this match camping our spawn side. Not Lancering and spotting enemies pushing the middle of the map. Not preventing enemies from grabbing Torque Bow and Longshot the multiple times they did. No…he sat on our side of the map and camped for kills. He literally spent two rounds of a game hiding at the top of the map.

Whenever enemies pushed the outside stairs, he ran at them with his Gnasher from behind. Teammates getting shot in the hallway? Okay, just wait for them to die and clean up the kills for a higher K/D. Or maybe run into a teammate’s 1v1 and kill the distracted enemy. I knew something was up when I noticed that an enemy had time to grab the grenades on our spawn side and kill the two Bronze players on our team before my teammate swooped in for the kill (all of this without spots from anyone).

My friend and I (Painedlocket1) were on the enemy side of the map trying to hold their hallway and we saw our respawns dwindle from 5 to 0. The last guy on the enemy team quit near end of the match after he could no longer respawn; his K/D was 3-5. Before we lost all the respawns, my friend spawned in and noticed the top guy on our team spinning in circles and shooting the ground, waiting for the match to end. I had noticed him sitting in cover at the top side earlier in the match, but didn’t pay it any mind.

He basically had his nice K/D and didn’t want to mess it up by either pushing the enemy team or giving away his (obvious) spot to enemies. So my friend and I eventually won the battle on the enemy side and the match was over.

Games like this are starting to become the norm in my experience. In retrospect, they’ve BEEN the norm and I’ve just not been fully aware of the how and why of things. And it’s not my intention to pick on this guy or single him or anyone else out. I’m using this as an example to show how BROKEN the ranks and matchmaking are.

There are players in most of the matches that I join that are scared to play. They are players between Gold 2 and up to Onyx 3 that are SCARED TO PLAY A MULTIPLAYER TEAM GAME! These are people that will sit in cover and watch you get double teamed instead of Lancering and spotting the enemies trying to kill you.

In this game, the top guy pushed with me and my friend to Dropshot at the beginning of the match but then sat in cover, let my friend get killed and watched a guy I didn’t see shoot me from behind…just so he could get the enemy kill and the Dropshot for himself. Lovely!

Throughout this match, my teammates were pushing 1v2s and 1v3s carelessly, no one was spotting enemies and players were constantly running into gunfire Gnasher-first, instead of spotting and using cover fire for other teammates. I was genuinely shocked when the scoreboard came up and I saw three Onyx icons next to their names.

I realized they spent most of the match either sitting in cover waiting to shotgun someone or fighting each other for kills. One of them even took one of my kills in a 1v1. If you look at the score, you’ll probably see that my team almost lost that match. Kills were more important than coordination, I guess.

The “game” of the system I mentioned earlier regarding ranking up is when players enter a match and either camp in spawn for the entire game, or hang back and let teammates die without trying to help. If they do the former, enemies are guaranteed to push the spawn side and they can get enough kills to trick the system into thinking that they played well. Maintaining a positive K/D and minimal deaths helps, and they can just find a middle area somewhere if the spawns swap too often.

In the latter situation, teammates might rush someone for a power weapon that they either don’t intend to use or use JUST infrequently enough to not be spotted or rushed by enemies. In my experience, this is why teammates will sit in cover and either not spot/shoot or flank to protect you.

Players will protect their K/Ds before they protect their teammates. I’ve had teammates leave me high and dry in a 2v2 that became a 1v2 if they think opponents are too skilled to kill. And the aftermath issue for me now that I’m realizing: players have gamed the system to rank up for so long that they are now CLEARLY playing matches that are above their skill level.

TC’s system is weighing their overall “performance” for games played, but if they’ve camped for most games and basically either stolen other players’ kills or primarily played the game shotgun-only, by the time these players reach Gold 2/3 and Onyx, they become liabilities to people like me. They can’t spot enemies, can’t rotate positions, can’t Lancer for cover fire, cross fire in general or push with teammates in a multi person situation. Not even factoring in wall bouncing, they can’t play at the skill level the game has gift-wrapped to them from all the K/D number crunches they’ve previously done.

And, inevitably, when my team loses (on top of a questionable prediction system, high ping players and mismatched ranking), they don’t lose rank percentage, I DO! If this is what “working at intended” looks like, Gears 5 will be in serious trouble.

Now, if your reply to all this is “just get your own team,” that’s not a solution. The matchmaking is being manipulated and players are constantly getting into matches that they have no business playing. When the phrase “our system is working as intended” gets repeated over and over, that should mean that the system is actively finding players for my team that want to PLAY a game and not hide in one.

I keep getting put into games where players are using teammates as cannon fodder to pad their stats, and that is a SERIOUS problem. When I’m playing a game in a 2v5 situation with no respawns and the last guy on the team (a Gold 3) is hiding in a corner to avoid dying…instead of playing aggressively to stay alive alongside me, he is playing above his skill level. When an Onyx 2 sits in cover during an initial 3v3 fight to wait for any clean-up kills, instead of helping his teammates before they die, he is not benefiting the team. And when I solo queue and my four teammates are all hiding in spawn against an Onyx 5-stack for an entire match, this “working as intended” system basically punishes me for trying to prevent the enemy team from getting complete map control with all power weapons.

All three of these examples and countless other situations are the product of a rank system and matchmaking that encourage Scaredy-Cat playstyles. These are the players this system thinks that I’m of “similar skill” to game after game after game. It’s honestly insulting. Whatever math that system is doing isn’t exactly adding up. What if the system for Gears 5 heavily weighed your “activity” in each match regarding map placement and interactivity with other players? This could be factored in (somewhat) for rank increases but mostly for matchmaking purposes.

Are you a player that hides in the initial spawn and weapon respawns? You get matched up with people who play the same way but matched against people who will demolish you if you can’t switch up that playstyle. Everything in the game is already tracked on a server with War Journal, so things like average number of enemy spots or assists with Lancer or other weapons per match could be factored in with matchmaking. Make it a setting in the menu similar to Halo 5 for matchmaking preferences. Connection strength, tighter ping allowance (MUCH tighter), skill rating (telling the server to only specifically look for certain ranks you manually choose) and playstyle would all be a big improvement.

@TC_Octus Since I’m assuming this matchmaking dilemma won’t be fixed in Gears of War 4, how do I tackle games with players who try their best to get MVP while being an unhelpful team player in the process?


(III EnVii III) #1517

TC have responded to what you suggest as players who clean up as having the higher ranks as compared to support players who will stay in lower ranks.

The point is, it’s the person getting those kills and cleaning up that takes the top spot simply because of this.

Playing Support is easier to do, assisting and sitting back is easier than going in and risking the death to get the kills.

I don’t like TDM myself due to the very campy nature - people like to sit way to much.

King is harder to do this and people are more inclined to be aggressive.

However - you already dismissed the solution - or the previous solution depending on your rank and skill - is to stack up with people.

Randoms will always care about number 1 - themselves.

When I play in a team, we all play forever each other. We don’t get mad about kills - it’s about the win. I will assist anyone and start shooting anyone on sight and give away my downs no problem if that’s what needs to be done and visa versa with my friends.

Randoms will freely take kills, not provide support, no comms for calls out and there will be no real strategy or tactic.

TDM is especially bad and the amount of matches I’ve lost because someone keeps going 2-10 or something similar.

What you described seems to be the most extreme versions of this and I’ve personally not experienced it that and in MP.

The way to really cheat the system is either when players have an aimbotter on their team with 30+ downs in TDM and the other team just clean up the kills or when people make Smurf accounts, join their friends and help them boost up in Rank really fast.

The system isn’t perfect as above however, on the whole, is does find the best and accurately rank them I feel though.


(theshieguy) #1518

My one issue with stacking is that I wanted to try solo to be able to rank up faster…or more “accurately.” I can deal with randoms being on the more selfish side of playing but the selfishness is mostly just bad, sloppy gameplay. More than half the time, players I get matched up with play like they are CLEARLY above their ability level. Missing 3 shots in a Gnasher 1v1, suiciding with a Boomshot, dying from their own planted grenade…the incompetence is rampant. And these are mostly playing north of Gold 3. I’m at Silver 3 in TDM and the behavior above has been players at Onyx 1 and 2.

The player in question, in the TDM game on Blood Drive…I’m not trying to put him on blast publically, but look up his profile on the Xbox website and check a few of his Gears 4 clips from a few weeks ago. He played one match on Raven Down where he didn’t spot any enemies and even managed to get THREE of his teammates killed. This guy was Onyx 1 at the time of the match I played with him two weeks ago, so he’s probably Onyx 2 now. Do YOU think he should be at Onyx 1/2 with that kind of gameplay? He doesn’t ever use a Lancer, doesn’t ever spot enemies and uses his teammates for stats on the scoreboard. That’s not only selfish…that’s just sloppy.

There’s no conceivable reason why he should be anywhere above Silver, but the stats look good enough, so the system rewards his…playstyle. There have been quite a few games I’ve played where people hang back. Almost none of the kills requires them to push in. It’s literally the opposite of what it’s supposed to be., the opposite of what you said. These players are rewarded for hiding. If the K/D is positive and they’re at the top of the list, the system doesn’t care.

I recently got into ranking up on Arms Race and I see it from time to time. You have the player that gets as many kills as possible early on, without pushing or flanking and then hanging back/ hiding from a flank or avoiding close combat on Overkill/Gnasher/Enforcer/Boltok. As long as they get enough kills with the other weapons, and hide on the CQC ones, they get MVP. And yes, I’ve run into more than a few “Bronze 3’” and Silver smurf accounts on TDM in the past that just happen get 15+ kills in a game and second place on the scoreboard so the Onyx 3 in the group can get MVP.

I haven’t bothered with LFG in a while. The last few times I tried looking for Horde games, I got some…pretty terrible candidates each time. People who were trying to play on Insane that probably needed more practice on Casual. I see so many “Onyx 3 or Diamond” posts, I never bothered. Plus, don’t most people on here look down on Arms Race? I gave up on TDM this season, so Arms Race is probably all I’ll play with maybe a little KOTH and Dodgeball later on.

I also worry that the messed up rank system may work against me in a stack, thinking that I’m being carried if players are too high. It’s the reason people make smurf accounts in the first place. Ha ha. I may be forced to look into. I finished an Arms Race game against a stack an hour ago and it was pretty terrible. Fights never feel balanced because a friendly game of aim and wits turns into a wannabe Esports scrim. Three people will run around only focused on me instead of organic fights between players on both sides. 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 or whatever.


(Nx Inssanity) #1519

I have been winning many games in the list of core games in matches and my percentage of rank does not rise, I hope and they fix that detail


(III EnVii III) #1520

People hide all the time in TDM.

It’s why I dislike the mode - too many stalemates. No one wants to push. You need coordination to push.

I’m not surprised at what you state, it’s typical TDM.

Arms Race is like Dodgeball and Guardian, those modes died so fast in my region that I never really got to play them on Ranked but I still couldn’t play them at a high level, not my thing really.

But you should definitely try and find the better players that cooperate and use a mic. It’s a good way to stack up and how I usually find new players to play alongside.


(Mr RBX) #1521

The thing people like you miss is that just because you “understand” the system and it makes sense within its own warped logic doesn’t mean the system is good . The proof is in how dead this game is. The fact that there is such an amount of confusion about a ranked that i’ve never seen in any other multiplayer game is a problem and the fault of the devs.

The whole thing is asinine. It doesn’t take into account play style, game flow, lag, quitters, or team makeup. Ranked should not be constant unfun sweats where at the end I just want it finished because the expects you to constantly play that way like a robot.

I’m not “not getting better” just because I don’t have the most kills. How do you know how they got this kills? My callouts? Tags? My lancer? My down? Positioning? No ranked system is flawless but there are countless others that have done it better than what we’ve been saddled with in Gears 4. It actively makes me not want to play the game period the more I think about how it works internally. This is without talking about having to fight laggy people and terrible server performance match in, match out.


(III EnVii III) #1522

See, people like you do this all the time, you assume that I’ve said the system is good or perfect or acceptable. Quite the opposite but no point repeating myself as it seems lost on you anyway.

To be fair, TC have spoken about this so many times, provided simple guides to follow and have even made videos with very simple explanations that to a degree - the player needs only invest a small amount of time to grasp the system.

But the basics are - the top performing players, the consistent ones - will get to the top.

The rest seem offended somehow that they aren’t in the top ranks.

The only thing it doesn’t really take into account are people’s ping - I’m at a massive disadvantage when outside my region. Sometimes I force this to get games. Sometimes it’s so far out that it’s near on impossible to win. I agree there.

The rest, I disagree on.

Matches should be very competitive - you are in a ranked playlist. People are comfortable with easy games. This then means you aren’t really getting better, not testing yourself and that the win doesn’t mean much.

These matches will now be even more likely due to Stricter MM and it’s a shame I can’t play with this system due to a severely low and basically non-existence playberase.

The game rewards those that can be in the positions to go and get kills. When I play with diamonds - we all slay and evenly distribute kills - yet we all assist and make callouts for each other too.

It’s much easier to sit back and play assist - hence not being an overall player whereas any one of my Diamond friends do both roles on the fly.

What system would you propose?

The game does accurately attribute top ranks to top players, that’s for sure - on the whole the system that Gears 4 has does work.

It’s not perfect and there are some flaws or frustrations, definitely - but if you are good enough, you will get there.

The people that think they deserve the top ranks need to look at their own performances - not just in one or two good games, but game after game.

Again, I open up discussion from your or anyone’s completed matches - post a few to see what kind of performance you are putting in.

But ultimately - there is no top rank for an assisting player - you have to be an all round top player - one that can go in and get the kills but also help the team with assists, callouts and clever positioning…


(Laaaaaancer) #1523

I wish I could find a stack. Everyone I play with or against only speaks Spanish.

I hope TC fixes this for 5. English speakers and non-English speakers should be segregated.


(Mr RBX) #1524

So you don’t think the system is good, perfect, or acceptable…but you sit here and write paragraphs daily defending it just because you’re another laggy dude hopping on a server you dont beblong on and you got your diamond already. Of course the only people who would do so benfits from this crap.


(GhostofDelta2) #1525

He isn’t defending it, he has stated that he is clearing up misconceptions.


(I JesseBlue I) #1526

Its so funny. Every one hates the ranking system (me included), and the only people who defend it are those who get diamond ranks. Im sure there are some really good players out there who deserve it, but the most diamond players I see have two bronze players on their team or have a constant 5 ping or do something else to manipulate the ranking system. I dont care about my rank but I must say that these diamond skins and emblems look very nice. Its like"hey we got this nice skins and emblems, but you’ll never get it". Well done TC :clap:


(III EnVii III) #1527

Exactly as @GhostofDelta2 said, I’m just trying to help those who want to make sense of it / want to understand what’s happening with the system we have. I’ve spoken out about the flaws in the system - as I said before I didn’t elaborate on this because, as proven by your response, you don’t want to listen to reason. But excuse me for writing paragraphs and trying to put together a comprehensive reply …

???

Wait, slow down, throwing accusations like this just show you aren’t a rational person who is thinking through what he is saying.

Let me just straighten this point out for you -

I would NEVER want to be placed outside my home server.

Ever.

Why?

I get buttery smooth 5ms ping - why would I ever want to give this up? And it’s what I’ve been used to for over 2 years now since the game came out - it’s how I’ve adapted to play.

There are two instances of when I get out outside my server.

1). The game randomly puts me on a different server (I have no control).

2). TC implemented Strict MM this season - first for KOTH and now for TDM. This has stopped me finding games altogether.

So as a LAST RESORT i would search with my US friends at around 11pm to 4am to try and get some games together.

Now since Season 6 and since doing this, I’ve played LESS THAN 10 games this way - when I’ve been searching for HOURS and HOURS.

It’s gotten to the point now where I’ve actually given up on Gears 4.

But to class me as a “Laggy Diamond Player” is ridiculous - I played a few matches, literally less than a dozen to try and get games, that’s it, if not, I’ve been playing on my local server - “where I belong”.