If any IT person looks at the credits of Gears 5, you'll immediately understand why the game is how it is, and why updates cause more bugs than they fix

Hey,

I’m an IT professional. I’ve been working in IT, doing software development on contracts (so self employed) for a couple of decades, mostly in capital markets, across the likes of NYC, Toronto, London (UK), and Bermuda.

Few weeks ago I got bored, and I actually watched the Gears 5 credits…

and I was shocked to see something very familiar to me…

a lot (and I mean a LOT, a TON) of the names associated with the technical work had company names associated with them… companies names which I knew only too well from my OWN work experience… Two in particular which come to mind were Allegies, and TekSystems - those are contract recruitment headhunters, a gateways for temporary/independent IT workers to find work…

what know what this told me? Gears 5 was written by independent, outside people, who most likely had absolutely no experience with Gears, and probably had no experience with video game development…

and want to know something else? All those really annoying problems we see in the game - I totally understand how they could have crept in… Those people, especially if those were offshore contracts, work on spec, and to the letter of the spec… So they told them, for example: if you press and hold RB in a situation where it is possible to rev up the chain saw, the chain saw needs to revup. So they coded that, exactly. So if you press and hold RB at any OTHER time, that input is lost (unlike in Gow4, where the chainsaw starts to revup as soon as you exit out of current animation)…

Those people likely had a free hand to develop everything from scratch, so they created a totally new event based input system for button presses, which explains these missed inputs, that reload when you release RB when you pressed it when it wasn’t expected, etc…

I don’t have any insider knowledge, but I can totally see how/why we have the game we have, when I realized it was offloaded to outside people, via the likes of TekSystems and Allegis…

This ALSO explains why we get so many bugs with releases! This is complicated code, and the people who make the updates NOW are NOT the ones who wrote it!!! People making changes now don’t know the complicated relationships between elements, logics, what hidden assumptions were made by programmers who originally created the code, what hidden shortcuts were made which worked at that time, but which break once people NOW make changes…

It totally makes sense, to me…

It doesn’t make it any less annoying when trying to play the game, but it’s understandable to me… Based purely on what I have seen in my own professional experience working with projects which tried to offload/offshore development work…

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Being an IT Specialist myself with more than 20 years of experience I could fully agree that this Game did lack a Lot of investment as well as developers in house support

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This in no way shape or form surprises me.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: The Next Dimension

So it’s the outsourcing; same as what happened with Halo Infinite…

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Gaming industry is filled with outsourcing and independent programmers and such, that is no excuse for all the issues plaguing the game at launch and recurring.

If anything the real issue with Gears from a development perspective is that the original programmers (from Epic Games) are mostly gone, this is probably more relevant to the state of Gears today than anything.

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If you see how well Dana understands questions in a dev stream then you can imagine how well he can explain things to an offshore developer for whom engilish is a second language (and has never played gears of war).
It’s a wonder the game works as well as it does I guess :laughing:

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That explains a lot. I get when the developers screw up something during an update, it happens to the best, as long as it’s an isolated incident. But at this point it feels like TC can’t drop a single larger update for this game without breaking at least one thing for a few hours. It just makes TC looks so amateur and unprofessional when they can’t handle the code of their OWN game. I thought to myself: “Maybe there’s been a large rotation of employees over the last year. Maybe a lot of programmers who worked on the game before launch left and got replaced with ones that didn’t write the Gears 5 code”, but your explanations makes so much more sense it’s eye-opening and I do remember seeing names of other companies next to many developer names during the credits.

The new update was by far the worst in that regard - Store items accidentaly released too early, broken matchmaking on PC and connectivity issues or the PvE changes not being implemented due to a last minute error etc… And keep in mind this update was delayed one week. At this point every time they will release an update, I guess I just shouldn’t expect the game to work properly for the first few hours.

Also, post this on the subreddit if you still haven’t. More people need to read this.

HI,

I appreciate that comment, but I don’t really do reddit, haha, I don’t know anything about it…

Now, to be fair. let me say it again, I have no knowledge of what happened, who those people were, etc, I’m just making an educated guess based on the names of the companies I saw there… if it was like a handful of cases, sure, who cares, but those names appeared a LOT in there…

My experience with offshore people (and we don’t know if these were offshore people here, just that they were not internal to TC/Microsoft) if that they will implement something EXACTLY to spec… Exactly… With no thought of what might come next… so if you end up in case where you want expand on things, beyond the most trivial, you end up having to basically re-write the whole thing again… Which is a great business model for the consulting business… not so much for the customers…

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I could totally see this being a big part of the problem if a large portion of work is being offloaded. There’s a reason why high-quality indie projects with teams of 10 people can be leagues less buggy than “AAA” studio work, because it’s all done in-house and everyone’s on the same page.

Other companies like CD Projekt Red and Infinity Ward are similar from what I’ve heard; very little technical work is contracted, it’s mostly just art assets, which is totally reasonable imo. Very polished games and updates come out of those studios, whatever your personal thoughts on the games may be.

…still, the self-conscious side of me realizes it’s kind of sad we’re speculating like this to begin with lol.

A post was merged into an existing topic: The Next Dimension

@Omen_LP this would make sense to me since Epic was the original devs. I mean TC is a totally different dev team . I know Rod was there, but they were pretty much starting from scratch after Epic sold it…right?

but this wasn’t the case with GoW4, right?

Omen,

I had no idea brother. Can you try and get a job there to fix the game? Maybe you and @D_A_N_III_3_L could fix this together. :sunglasses:

I have no IT experience, but I do have management experience. So if it where me, I would go after independent contractors that had a love for what I was doing. This way, you almost have a guarantee that you will get the best work you can out of them.

Well here’s dreaming. Lol

Cheers!

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If Microsoft would hire us @Omen_LP @Hu1k_Daddy we would definetely fix the gnasher once and for all !! :slight_smile:

At least the longshot and the freedom lancer work as intended. hahahaha

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Hi,

Haha, I appreciate the sentiment:

but that’s not possible for many reasons :slight_smile:

Strongly suspect that some thing just cannot be “fixed” without a substantial part of central, core logic being re-written, and that is not going to happen because it would be (a) expensive, (b) time consuming, and © riskly…

So these input based problems (where button presses are lost when they happen during animations, etc), I don’t think those are going to go away… EVER… Especially since I don’t believe they have even acknowledged them as a problem, EVER…

The Chainsaw interrupt/reload thing, similar thing. I don’t believe that’s going away ever - that also deals with input processing and events, and lost events… IMO, the best way to deal with it now is to remove the chainsaw interrupt - so once you start to revvup the chainsaw, it always revvs up, it doesn’t stop the revup with damage (like the retro charge doesn’t stop just because you get hit by a snub bullet from across the map)… THAT they could do easily, it’s probably a 1-2 lines of code change (comment out a call to a check).

My experience is completely on the back end of things. I have zero knowledge/experience/interest in GUI technologies for web development, never mind 3D games, physical engines, hit detection, etc… That’s completely outside of my scope… But the first half of my career was spent doing a LOT of high end socket network programming, so I could look at the net code, hahaha :slight_smile:

But even if they wanted me to, hahahaha, they probably couldn’t afford me :slight_smile:

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I‘m not a dev, but was involved in many projects. After we decided to return to an inhouse dev team our projects got finished 60-70% quicker, 50% cheaper and with 80% less bugs. So I can understand what you mean. Don’t know of that applies to TC and sometimes there are situations that make it impossible to avoid Outsourcing.

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Just a comment on the chainsaw bug: while having it on the same button as reload is stupid this particular bug was not present at launch (the frequent reloads when attempting to chainsaw that is). It was something that started happening during op 2 (or possibly 3) when they changed something. So if they only knew what they did to it there’s hope it could be reverted.

I only needed to read this and knew I could stop.

Microsoft has spent so much money on gobbling up studios that they look for opportunity to cut costs wherever they can. Admittedly, I wasn’t aware that this was going on at TC, however, it has been proven to be a HUGE issue over at 343.

Some guy on Youtube made a video where he was reading ex-employee reviews for 343 on Indeed and Glassdoor. Beyond most complaining about there being almost zero management and poor discipline, nearly every review complained about contract workers who would make progress impossible. They mentioned how they would have to train the contract employees in their systems, they would work for a few months, and then quite… Lather, rinse, repeat.

I was blown away by some of the reviews of ex-employees. Sure, some could just be disgruntled, but it truly made it sound like 343 was being asked to make diamonds out of horse crap, because Microsoft wasn’t willing to spend money on their highest grossing IP.

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This wouldnt shock me. It’s too the point I want them to sit in my chair and play this game and explain it. Let them deal with this ■■■■■■■■ and explain within reason why they couldnt make a proper game. I’m so pissed off right now.
This isnt something you wait to fix. You do it now.

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