I will not buy Gears of War 5 unless these Horde issues are addressed


(Dubba Dizzo) #1

First off, I’m a huge fan of the series. I’ve played every installment of Gears of War and I am excited to see what Gears of War 5 has in store for us. But most of my time spent playing Gears has been in the Horde mode. I especially enjoyed Gears of War Judgements’ Survival Mode, to me that was a massive improvement to the Horde formula from previous games and was a little disappointed when Gears of War 4 returned to the old formula. What I liked about Gears 4’s Horde Mode was the introduction of Skills and Classes (partly taken from Judgment) and the Fabricator/Power dynamic. But there are major glaring grievances that kill the fun and at times make me question why I play the game.

I have over 200 hours of gameplay time in Horde. Below is a list of grievances, in no particular order, of what I feel could improve upon the experience if implemented. However, if these areas are not addressed in Gears 5, I see no reason to continue my Horde experience as it will feel all too familiar, mundane, problematic and I won’t be purchasing Gears of War 5.

  1. Stop doing 50 waves.

The main problem with 50 waves is that it’s a time commitment. When the mode lasts 2 hours on average to do 50 waves, people almost always quit halfway through. I mean, why wouldn’t they? 2 hours is a LONG time to commit to one game. People have stuff to do. Especially if you let them choose a bounty that only lasts 20 waves. I can’t count the number of times people quit at wave 20 because they reached their bounty. 2 out of 5 people leave, and only 3 are left. You’re going to expect the rest of us to stick around and hash through the remaining more difficult 30 waves with only 3 people? Not a chance. Everyone else ends up quitting too. 25 waves is plenty for horde. Better yet, make it 10 waves that last for longer, with each one increasing in difficulty. Also, with 50 waves if you actually calculate the amount of time spent between the time a wave ends, to the time you’re fighting the next enemy, its like 45 seconds man. That’s 37.5 minutes of just downtime alone. It’s like jeeeezus does this drag on. Take a hint from Gears Judgement.

  1. No more 2x health, then 2x accuracy, then 2x damage, then 2.5 everything.

This not only takes longer for reasons mentioned above but giving enemies 2x health after wave 10 doesn’t make enemies more difficult, it just makes them bullet sponges. It’s not fun. It just takes longer. How about instead the enemies gain new skills like now they dodge and charge at you, or they move faster. Make them noticeably more interesting. Accuracy does very little to increase difficulty. I mean how much more accurate is a tracker? It just gets close and blows up. Double damage is good, but then again, you have to get to wave 30 to experience that, but everyone’s quit by then and you’ve just wasted 45 min to get there.

  1. Classes are good, and having mix and match skills are good, so long as the skills are actually useful

A lot of the skills in Gears 4 are good on paper but poor in execution. Example: In the soldier there is a skill called Resupply. Every # of seconds you get a free grenade, and that number decreases as you upgrade the skill. Sounds good right? Well, it would be good if you didn’t need 3 other skills to make it somewhat useful. See, the problem with grenades are they are by themselves, not very effective. You can tell because almost nobody uses them. They take too long to detonate meaning you’ll miss your target most of the time, you have to actually switch out your weapon to use it first meaning you can’t use it quickly, and grenade planting sometimes works if the enemy isn’t moving fast enough but most often then not you’re taking out just a tracker or juvie. So grenades suck, but what if you could make them better? The soldier has 4 other cards to make grenades better. One skill allows you to plant 8 grenades at a time, but like I said its usually a tracker or juvie that sets it off. Theres a skill that allows you to carry up to 8 grenades at a time, but unless youre planting, you’re not getting that many kills, and its just trackers/juvies. Grenade damage is better, but not a lot better cause you still miss with it. Combine all those skills together and you’re a tracker/juvie killing machine, except you’re not when your lancer can still do better. It makes you ask, why take 4 skills JUST FOR GRENADES, when I can be more effective with just the assault rifle damage skill and the active reload bonus skill.

My point is, this causes a lack of diversity among the classes. By only selecting the few skills that are useful, you are only effective one way. Anyone that’s played this game any length of time knows this. And it’s not just the soldier. It’s the same with the sniper, the scout, the engineer, and the heavy. Every time I mix it up with different skills, I’m reminded why I shouldn’t. It’s monotonous.

  1. There needs to be a barrier of entry for more difficult modes.

If you’re just starting out in Horde, you should not have the option to play Hardcore or Insane until you’ve at least unlocked some skills first. It’s not fair to the rest who want to play more difficult modes, but we end up babysitting 2 people on our team that haven’t even reached the 1st prestige and are getting their ■■■■■ handed to them. We might as well be playing with just 3 people. It’s actually worse because their running around picking up power when they’re not a scout because they haven’t learned that’s the scouts job, or they’re buying useless crap from the fabricator which is wasting the precious power, or they’re getting downed constantly causing us to stop what we’re doing to pick them up. So what happens as a result? People quit. I honestly would like to play more Insane, but I know the chances of getting through all 50 waves without someone quitting, are very slim. Matter of fact, the only time I’ve ever done that is when I’ve gathered up enough friends who happen to be online and hosted a private match.

  1. Enough with the predictable enemy waves.

It’s so completely boring to know exactly what enemy type is going to be present at every wave. I know that on wave 4 the sentinels come out. I know that on wave 5 the first drones appear. I know that wave 7 is when the Grinders come out. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Honestly, the first 4 waves are lame because it’s nothing but slow-moving robots. No challenge really, just a time sink.

  1. Nothing to do once you’re Level 10 with all Classes.

It took a while but once I attained Level 10 with all Classes, now what? At that point I had leveled up all the Green Skills and most of the Blue Skills. Purple skills were not even close. Sooooo now all I do is grind out Horde matches for hours to gain enough scrap to create a single Purple Card? Maybe offer a “Prestige” mode for the classes that resets the Class back to Level 1 but you gain an additional Skill slot, which allows you to now have 6 Skills active. This opens up new possibilities and skill combinations (Builds) and then extends the life of the game.

  1. Provide incentives for players to play as their Class and bonus rewards to finishing a match

I cannot tell you how many times I’ve played with a Scout on my team who DOES NOT pick up power. There needs to be an incentive or reward for playing as your class properly that is too good to ignore. Maybe provide bonus xp/gold coins for performing actions that suit your class. Snipers should get rewarded for Headshots and Spotting. Heavies should get rewarded for damaging Bosses and the larger enemies. Scouts get rewarded for picking up Power/Deposit etc. As for finishing a match, there should be bonus rewards for every player still in the match when the game is finished. This will incentivize players to stay in the game until the end because there is a bigger reward for finishing with a full team. Take note from Payday 2, when the team completes a heist, there is a larger cash bonus when everyone makes it out and “survives”. This results in the team working together, and of all the heists I’ve done in Payday 2, I’ve never had anyone quit.

That’s it for now. I do have more to say but these are the main issues I have that if addressed would make Gears of War 5’s Horde Mode phenomenal. Thanks for reading my post.

(Buster McTunder) #2

Agreed for the most part. But I mostly agree with the Wave 10 enemy skills, rather than bullet sponges. Doubt it’ll change…but good work nonetheless!

(The Sloth T34) #3

These are valid points good job.As for classes I actually made a post on potential classes. I hope you check it out.
I’m also going to do one for skill cards for horde. It should be out by tomorrow.

(Vanden255) #4

Double health after wave 10 is fine now, though it wasn’t before. In Gears 2 and 3 the enemies did indeed just become bullet sponges, but now that we have skill cards to more than double the damage we do, it means you’re basically fighting normal-difficulty enemies if you use the weapons your class specializes in.

(Dubba Dizzo) #5

The problem is it doesn’t really add to the challenge, it just makes the game longer, especially cause they add it in after Wave 10. Also, that means you’re forced to use those skill cards that increase damage, rather than coming up with a creative playstyle. You’re kind of making the point I made in the second part of #3.

(J4CKA1) #6

The biggest thing I see on this list is locking out certain classes from higher difficulties. I don’t think a class level 1 engineer should have access to insane or inconceivable. Sure it’s more XP for leveling up, but you’re really hurting tour team. Having this, along with a tutorial for each class would go a looooong way.

(lnSaNe ShoTZz) #7

im not a big horde player at all especially in gears 4, i agree to a lot what you have said. horde needs a HUGE improvement/changes. 2 hour games are long and i never really play horde anymore because of how repetitive it is.

i literally will try to play horde every once in awhile but i always just stop because people leave or it gets boring.

(J4CKA1) #8

Agreed. I also think though, if they figured out a way to minimize the time commitment that more would play it. 2+ hrs for inconceivable (no speedrun) is a slog.

(Vanden255) #9

What would you suggest as an alternative? If enemy health stayed at pre-wave 10 levels for an entire game, they’d be trivial to kill if you used your damage boost cards. Should they just take out damage boost cards along with enemy health boosts?

(FIALHO 94 SP) #10

yes you are right, 6 or 7 class active abilities and horde option 30 and only one skill for the whole set of grenades.

(soulcalibr) #11

Get rid of the power mechanic. Power pickup just makes people selfish. “Oh, we have 20,000 in the fab?! Hell yeah I’m wasting it all on 4 Sniper Strikes!..and we have no more power. Sorry engineer. Should have bought stuff before I spent it all!”

Plus people don’t understand how power works and think the Scouts are “stealing” it all, or Scouts don’t understand to pick it up during waves, or a Scout dies and you have to waste time waiting for an opportunity to run out, grab tags, revive, and wait.

The power management makes Horde 3.0 terrible, solely because 1 player has the option to basically troll everyone. A player spends all the power then LEAVES just to screw with people.

(Duffman GB) #13

Good post, I have made a few of these myself. :wink:

In Gears 2/3 and J I was about 90% Horde 10% mp (allowing for campaign runs of course) in Gears 4 I would say I’m 80% mp and 20% Horde.

This is due in no small part to some of the things you mention. I especially agree with point 2 and to a lesser degree point 1.

I have moaned since the release of Horde 3.0 about the lack of diversity both in enemy types and in predictability of waves. To give some credit to TC they have given us a few welcome changes with various events but even with that, the lack of enemy types when compared with older games (including Survival) is quite shocking and I will add my bête noire WHY only 4 boss types and one of them will not work on closed maps, so 3 boss types. Even though I have typed this 100 odd times I still can’t get my head around the fact we have so few.

Why were traditional Locust not added in, is is really that hard to program (genuinely, I have no idea)

The timer in between waves needs halving as standard this will save a good amount of time over the 50 waves. On that front I do not think it is too long, if you are playing with friends and I think that was Rod’s intention with original Horde. I can actually see a time, maybe in private matches were you get unlimited waves. The 25 option was a great addition though.

Basically I wanted Horde 2.5. I think that although Horde is great, 2.0 is the pinnacle of the series, in weapons,in maps and most importantly in enemy diversity.

I’m hoping that 4.0 will have some new things, none of us have thought about, while not forgetting the legacy of KING OF CO-OP

I so want to fall in love with Horde again.

(Dubba Dizzo) #14

Yep, that’s kind of my point. You see, take scout for instance. There’s a skill called Cloak that turns you invisible when you’ve been in cover for a # of seconds. Cool right? Except not because I have to give up one of the 5 best skill cards for the scout, which is shotgun damage, health boost, health regen rate, speed bonus, and deposit bonus. So you have to think that just by giving the enemies more health right off the bat, in order for me to shotgun drones in one shot for the remainder 40 waves after their health doubles, I HAVE TO take the shotgun damage skill. It means I can’t take the cloak skill cause all the rest are too important for a scout. If you got rid of the double health, it would be a more fun scout to play. Maybe gradually increase the health of enemies over the course of 10 waves could work. But to do it right off the bat? It just makes the game drag on and forces me to play a certain style. I’d just rather do what The Sloth T34 suggested and just have a base increase in shotgun damage as an attribute to being a scout.

My suggestion is to make enemies more difficult in other ways, like drones now are more aggressive, or pouncers sneak up on you like a sabrecat. Just doubling their health is a lazy way of making enemies harder.

(Buster McTunder) #15

Or could have more dangerous enemies show up as it goes. Maybe one wave, you’re fighting drones and right before the wave ends, a small pack of Scions spawns across the map. I don’t know—can’t think of much diversity as far as enemies for Gears 4, and it’s pool of some 20 diverse enemies. Compared to 3’s some 60+ Locusts.

(Dubba Dizzo) #16

I agree with what you said here too. However, I think if you want to play 50 waves with your friends, all for it, (sometimes I like the long haul) but just make that an option in private mode. Public should be 25 or less in my opinion, if you want people to stick around that is.

(Duffman GB) #17

Another thing we have mentioned on many occasions is the need for “Objectives” in Horde we are part way there will kill x amount with x weapon but I was thinking more along the lines of what Mass Effect and Uncharted do with their Horde modes (I’m sure there are loads of other games I could have chosen) for example; we need to hold a hill/area of the map or we need to defuse a bomb or defend an area or AI controlled companion , these are just examples.

I also want more things going on “off battle” be it a lot more chatter, shells going off, dynamic time or effects. If any of you guys have played Attrition on TF you will know what I mean, it adds loads to the experience.

(Dubba Dizzo) #18

That could be cool, but it’s not in my priority list. But since we are talking about small stuff, my brother and I were talking about something that might be cool. Rather than having a fabricator option for team revive, how about a class based action that revives all teammates if executed. Something like once you’ve been deemed “Last man standing”, if you’re a soldier and you’re able to effectively grenade tag two enemies, all your teammates are instantly revived. I mean, can you imagine watching someone while you’re dead, hoping they pull off some awesome stuff and then they do and you’re all back into the fight? Would be epic.

(Duffman GB) #19

Like that idea :+1:

(Kevin D N) #20

Offline horde

(xArjenRobben10x) #21

Horde has always been 50 waves so clearly it works. There’s pretty much always some sort of a 25 wave variant available to play these days so if you want 25 waves play that.