Horde and Escape ideas - removal of hero system, leaderboards

Hello guys,
This thread only represents my opinion about current state of pve in gears 5 and ideas that could improve gameplay for those modes. As I’m aware none of this things can be done, in my eyes are the natural evolution of previous gears pve modes. As for playing much horde and escape, I’m really astonished that TC made that much number of bad design decisions and missed so many bugs. Escape is really far more polished than horde, so my ideas will mainly focus on the horde. So lets begin:

HORDE IMPROVEMENTS:

  1. Power taps needs to be removed or improved.
    In current state these element of gameplay is useless. Power genereted by it is insufficient for horde as we get 4000 power on 4th lvl upgrade per wave. You cant build anything from such ammount of power. And defending it will bring on you death raster than fortifying your base and stay put. My idea for them is or total removal from game, or change the method of gaining power from them. Maybe gain 10 power per second for an upgrade (40 on 4th) and no need for collecting power. In this state it would be worth caping and defending it(2400 power per minute).

  2. More fortifications. This is shame, after realising gow 3 there should be added more than 20 fortifications, but we have barely 8 (counting power tap and fabricator) fortifications compared to 6 in gow 3. Why manned turret was removed? There is do much natural fortification to create that this is astonishing there are not existing on game. My idea is to add:
    A. Movable cover(1 lvl you can cover behind it, lvl 2 with razors on top and enemy get hurt while mantling that cover, lvl 3 cover can’t be mantled over, lvl 4 cover Has energy shield an can ricochette bullets)
    B. Hammer of down beacon, only lvl 1.
    C. Ice turret leveling similar to electric sentry, but freezes enemies.
    D. Manned turret like in gow 4.
    E. Control center where you can summon deebees to help.
    F. Proximity mines, leveling will increase damage and radius
    And that’s are only examples.

  3. Remove hero system but leave cards. Its annoying that i can’t Play any character i want. Why cards are related to characters? It would be far more fun to give player to choose 7 cards (5 passive ability cards, 1 ultimate card and 1 fortification boost card ) out of all cards from all characters, character skin to Play with no restrictions and 3 changable murators for map(host only). It will give players a chance to do something better than watching JD GL spam all over map. Also auto deposit power to fabricator will be better. Buyable perks should be affecting all players not only a buyer, it could be bought from fabricator. Of course perks should be redesigned to balance the gameplay and power economy.

  4. Horde maps should have leader boards just like escape. Nothing more to add to it.

  5. Jack. It’s fun on one hand and boring on other. One idea that could change dramatically playing Jack. Just let him mounting weapons he picks up. So he can shoot, maybe even db weapons only but still will be more fun than now.
    And that’s it for horde.

ESCAPE IMPROVEMENTS:

  1. More logical riddles while running away, for now most hardest choince you have, is to choose which Path you run. And after couple runs you just run same Path as always. Its repeatable, and boring. Why there are not duch riddles like turn off security areas where turret still works and can kill you, or find switch to get to next level.
  2. More environmental traps, like proximity mines, holes in floor, sentry turret, falling ice blocks, or just some juvie drops on your near. Escape should have more random events like exploding pods, e holes and maybe sire Grabs you through a hole in a wall.
  3. Difficult should come out not from almost indestructible enemies but from far more random encounters and environment.

OTHER IMPROVEMENTS:
Let custom maps give you experience for you. I’m not intrested in running other hives than a weekly hives.
Give better rewards for leaderboards.

Please, feel free to share your opinion about it. I think it would improve pve modes.
Thank you for reading.

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Gears 5 Horde isn’t like previous Horde, you need to be on the move and not just sit back, Most people keep base in one location, you need to move fortifications as you progress and get power taps , the team needs to know this, depends on map also how much taps can be taken and defended well.

MVP Screen for Horde would be nice seeing the Team with MVP in Center rather than just victory

There definitely needs to be more traps for Escape & random ones, give the swarm more abilities like how hunter is camouflage, give other swarm more abilities for Escape, even Horde

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There is something like this available as an Escape tile where you have to throw a switch to raise a platform to be able to progress. But it’s rather simplistic at that, where if you trigger it either nothing happens, enemies are in front of it on the other side of the gap, or spawn behind you when the switch is activated, or in front when the platform arrives at the top. But it’s the closest thing I have to this kind of thing. Also is so far only rarely found on some custom Escape hives, not in TC made ones.

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I don’t think we need that many extra fortification options. A Turret would be nice but it needs to be balanced so it doesn’t just take over Horde.

Maybe just enable one to be built at any one time?

I understand how this works, but as I played with my friends, we’ve decided every time not to capture power taps as Jack makes power faster than 4 4th lvl power taps together and he can revive teammates and hijack enemies. Giving the taps ability to generate power in fabricator would be far more better solutions for it and I will mostly try to defend it.

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Also get mvp out of hoarde. An engineer who builds lvl 4 barriers and lvl 4 sentries takes the game over. Hoarde is supposed to be a team concept. All points should be devided among the players. Also want the turret back

Yeah depending on your team members with their different roles, you guys would get power tap(s) or not. People need to be aware of skill cards, ultimates, passives and how to use to team’s advantage . There are combinations that can work with or without engineers .

My squad and I have been playing without engineer recently and trying other tactics. Know what your character can get at fabricator so when you’re going without engineer there’s motive in how you are getting around the waves along with skill cards and ultimates.

Some people can’t also expect to beat higher difficulties (with more modifiers of course) with low levelled character just like that with no coordination

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My reply to you will also represent only my opinions. I will try to explain them as I go, and I won’t only disagree, but I do disagree with the majority of your points.

I disagree. Power taps in their current form seem to be a wonderfully designed mechanic, promoting people to take over various areas of maps instead of sitting on a single corner/dead end for pure efficiency, which would make for a boring repetitive experience like you mention of escape in later points. As a mechanic, they fulfill their function and role quite well. I’ve made many bases that include getting several taps, and at times all of them, usually ones that involve owning half or more of the map. (Also this can be very hard to build for without the extra power, even with a full-power jack forging on full-blast.)

Definitely not useless. 1 tap = 4k power per wave, 2 = 8k-P/w, 3 = 12k-P/w, 4 = 16k-P/w.
You can build quite a lot from such an amount of power. You can even forego a jack which typically brings in anywhere between 15-30k a round on average at max forge card.

Some small math showing the amount of power you would receive against jack.

Assuming the average range of 15-20k per round, usually starting from wave 6-8 at lvl 4 forge (Let’s assume wave 10 for easy math)
Thats 15-20x40 waves = 600k-800k power from jack
Similarly a tap is 4kx40 waves = 160k power.
4 taps would be 4kx40+4kx30 + 4kx20 +4kx10 = 400k power.

As we can see the taps generate slighlty over 65% of the power that jack could. This is enough to build 65% or so of what you build with jack, and when combined with jack = out to around 1 million power throughout the horde. I wouldn’t call that useless or an amount of power with which you are unable to build anything.

On the contrary, The taps actually promote base variance exploration. Sure, you may die, lose fortifications, or wipe at times trying to learn how to defend/build around them, but doing so will teach you quite a lot as well! Often times, if you don’t merely build at the dead end or a single corner of the map- you will end up with several of these in your base. If your engineer really knows what theyre doing, you should be able to, in most games, take several of these midway through the horde as you will typically be pushing to have control over half or more of the map.

I think this would be a terrible idea, both for ease of exploit, and the passivity. We already have people trying to do as little as they possibly can to beat master (I.e. jack-kait-jd-baid-lizzie on exhibit dead end repeat runs), so I think adding another mechanic that feeds into that passivity would be dreadful. We want people to actively be aware enough to hit a button once a wave. Also, you would have to counter people who would farm it by waiting each wave by putting in a cap. What should the cap be? 6k per tap? You could simply buff the taps a bit to those numbers.

All in all I think taps are a fine game mechanic that promotes base building/map control exploration, give adequate power, and promote people actually playing through the waves.

I tend to agree with this. I’m sure it comes down to a manpower/money issue. Everything costs money to design, balance, test, and implement. Although I would like some more, they shouldn’t be rushed out.

Manned turrets are being worked on by the way.

A. I’ve thought about this myself, and it would be very nice, but also very abusable. If they do implement it- it would need a larger area around it to prevent some blocking interactions like the fabricator, except maybe larger.
B. I don’t mind this. A very expensive team ult from fab isn’t a bad idea. JD basically has this already.
C. This might be extremely hard to balance, but I do hope they eventually add them.
D. I do believe these are on the way. Funny thing to balance because they have to be somewhat op or why would you use them?
E. I don’t like this idea at all. It’s too much passivity. We need less passivity not more. More options to engage with the enemy less is not a good thing for me.
F. I’d like to instead see this as the ult of a character. Perhaps drop 3 which can be moved later, but are still a decent defensive/offensive oh!@%@ button. Also, doing these as a fortification would be a little redundant and potentially hard to balance into grenade tags on wall/ground.

Yikes, this is a dangerous one. It would have to be done extremely carefully. Essentially, the hero system would have to be maintained, keeping the character you use a cosmetic change only. Meaning- Del’s cards would need to be idk “Engineer type A’s cards” While bairds cards are “Engineer type B’s cards” . Also you would need to lock it to one card set per match. No 4x type 1 engineer for example. There is a very carefully designed and balanced group of cards on each character. That needs to be preserved.

Yes, as a fan of 3 I find it annoying that we can’t pick whoever we want cosmetically too, however, on the contrary I find the hero system somewhat immersive, and honestly very helpful as a gameplay insight as per what style of play you should take on.

However, this is the least feasible idea of your post.

The amount of design and balancing and code interaction checkwork that goes into the individual characters is immense, let alone checking and balancing them all against each other. I honestly don’t even think that is a possibility, and even if it were and happened, people would find one broken/op interaction to abuse after another until either the whole thing is scrapped or people give up trying to actually play the mode- instead grinding it for efficiency only- even worse than they do now. This needs to be avoided at all costs. The card sets, as mentioned above, are a delicate balance among themselves, and opening up using all of them interchangeably on a single character simply will not work.

There are many threads in these forums that depict the lack of a need for JD. If you are tired of the most straightforwardly strong characters doing 80% of the work it might be time to change your strategy/lobby requirements instead of the games mechanics.
I have built several bases that allow others to be useful, as well as completed several masters without kait or jd. The option to actually play alongside these guys and be effective is still there though, but not in dead ends and corner bases where you have no good way to operate outside of these two characters mechanics.

I don’t like this idea very much either. The perks allow for even further customization beyond the cards, and having it so people can divy the power up between themselves, or give it individually to each other allows for social dynamics that are much needed such as countering a bad player as a 2 man team by keeping the power to yourselves and coordinating. Sometimes players will outright waste power from the fabricator, and this also works as a protection against that.

I don’t think the perks need any kind of reqork except that the last 3 tiers offer only 3%, though arguably this was also a good design decision balance wise, as the last 3% over a threshold can be more effective than the 27% leading up to it. This isn’t always the case, but it certainly can be… Refer to mmo’s where people grind months to acheive 1-3% increases in gear effectiveness. Why? That 1-3% matters more than the number portrays.

Don’t they? Unless you mean weekly rewards? I condone this entirely. Weekly horde skins would be fantastic, and frankly I’m surprised escape got this but not horde.

Agreed, jack can be boring, but also fun. Mostly boring though. I don’t have any specifically great ideas about making him more fun, as the balance of many things is built around him and his power generation/healing capabilities rather carefully. I think he should ultimately stay where he is. He isn’t exactly necessary, so it seems okay to me.

This is a feasible idea. They could probably balance and implement this well without upsetting the game, however, it would promote jacks to try to dps more instead of fulfilling their utility, so I’m scared of this additions’ effect on the playerbases experience when playing with/as jack. This specific change may cause many, many runs to go worse, or fail.

I don’t think myself, or many english speakers/readers will understand what you mean by the use of riddles here. I’m going to work off the general impression that it means variance/obstacles/extra options of play in a very general sense. Feel free to correct me.

I think the escape hives are repetitive because they need to be. This is a balancing design decision. If the paths were constantly changing, it would be insanely hard to balance all the enemies, equipment, player ability, etc correctly. Doing so in the current state is an already immense endeavor, and adding map variance would be even worse, and potentially untenable. I’m okay with the way escape is now, especially with the support of constant hive releases.

Same reasons as above, I disagree. It’s simply too much complexity, and seems entirely unnecessary. Some of the hives are already insanely hard on master for most people, and I don’t think we need more content within hives, as much as more content to bring to the hives (new characters). Maybe they could do individual hives with some of these ideas, and that would be very cool to see, but sprinkling them throughout escape would essentially alter the mode, and again, I don’t think it’s tenable.

Disagree, as the enemies are carefully balanced against the capabilities of the characters, and when the strengths of each character are discovered, refined, and applied correctly by the player, the enemies simply fall apart in front of you. I make mince meat of nearly every hive on a few different characters. Namely mac/lahni, and let’s not forget keegan has jd bleeds. Cough Cough Silverback! cough cough

I can only see ONE way this would work. The dev team would have to individually greenlight hives for live experience gain.

Otherwise it is simply far too abusable. There are already hundreds of maps where you simply spawn in, walk through 1 tile, and boom you’re at the helipad… Live exp across all custom hive maps simply will not work.

Not an opinion, it simply won’t work.

I disagree on the better rewards for leaderboards. The infected skins of operation 1 were lackluster, but I do like them, and the skins have improved greatly this operation. They are also time sensitive- which means exclusive. I like this too, and it’s why I instant equip the ones from operation 2 to most of my guns.

However I would like to see them add the same to horde as mentioned above.

All in all I can see you want good for the mode, but maybe you should try tweaking your approach to these modes rather than the modes themselves mate. The playstyle you want to enjoy is available, even if it doesn’t jump out so obviously as sitting in a dead end/corner with jd/kait doing everything…

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Thank you for presenting your point of view, you’ve pointed out some things that I missed or could not experienced during game, with taps I agree with you on one side they will give you uch ammount of power while using them as they ment to be designed. Problem is that it needs a perfectly balanced team that plays a lot together. And you need to spend almost 3 hours of time on master difficulty to get through 50 waves, as for me is very difficult because of my personal life.

Also i understand the immersion of hero system, but in current state I dont buy it. Too many restrictions, example: while I agree that engineers should not have bleeding cards, why fahz does not have one? The current balance is also not very well made.

Mostly you pointed out things that I can agree, but I think balancing cards would be possible as hero system had similar problems while it was in design process.

I dont want to have this ideas added to gears 5 as they are written, I’m aware that most of it would completly ruin current game experience, if it would be carefully thought through and made correctly, I think they might work.

Thank You for response and presenting the opposition, disadvantages and errors of my ideas . If i would have working pc i would check them as i had made one horde mode type game for GoW pc few gears ago.

Also i try diffirent approach for horde.

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knowing how to mix characters and abilities can go far way, For Example, since release of Lizzie, once you level her up and equip the Cold Finish Card , what we normally do in our squad is include LIzzie and have her build barriers, The Skill Card also applies to her barriers, so the enemies freeze once they hit less than 25% in health.