Engineering "Hot or Not?": The Briar Patch Look

I don’t second-guess an engineer’s plans at a glance, but I do still form opinions. What do you think of builds like the below picture on yesterday’s daily? There was also an L3 barrier and Shock Sentry for the side spawn entrance, and two lockers (L3/4 and L2).

IMO, these people get points for the barriers being:

  1. L1 instead of the more costly, slower to repair, and sight-blocking higher levels
  2. placed “vertically” in the AI path, so enemies are slowed through the entire length of a barrier and not just a brief “horizontal” one

But I think the amount/overlapping style is unnecessary. I’m not sure they do much to “spread the damage” (given and taken) over multiple barriers to actually do more or last longer. Am I correct? A fortification-destroying boss will also get more in one bull rush.

In the Frenzy I’m referencing, it was also basically the entirety of the fortification defense. I don’t know if the engineer felt an energy crunch, but if so, this seems like a misapplication of funds. You can fully cover this area and put some of these barriers to better use farther out.

Although it wasn’t Aggressive Enemies yesterday, the match didn’t have much DPS due to Long Range Gambit-prompted class mix and player underperformance. So with nothing further forward, those of us who weren’t camping here permanently (all 1 of me) inevitably have to fall back every wave and now the entire team is trapped with awful range sightlines in the Forge Spawn. It’s comparatively big, but it’s the side without even modest roof protection and just the one piece of awkward round cover (plus, I suppose the Fabricator). It’s a death sentence to enable all the Reflective or Bastion shielded enemies to converge there without anyone/anything drawing them off, thinning them out, or even just damaging or slowing them down.

So I say “Not Hot.” Is there value to overlapping spikes I’m missing?

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Building that far back in the spawn is incredibly silly. The fabricator is way better used as an offensive tool rather than defensive. Everytime a new map came out a friend and I would go into a private match first thing and mess with how far up we can put the fabricator before enemies started soawning behind us. From my experience of playing with randoms they just default to putting the fabricator as far back as possible which is an awful idea. You back yourself into an inclosed area and also have enemies spawning closer to you because of it.

Like in your example, on Speyer, building the base right in the spawn like that is not a good idea. On Speyer, the fab can be placed on the other side of that tall spawn wall and will spawn block to nearly the middle of the map allowing the engineer to actually create a base worth a damn. Also, to counter the inevitable “the fab takes damage now” argument i will say that its very rare for that to happen and it also only costs 4k to bring back and fully repair it. Theres zero risk by being offensive with the fab.

All this being said though, i dont think engineers are even needed in this game.

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It would be interesting to see maps marked up to show where the furthest fab location could be to prevent enemy spawning.
Some maps would be tough as they don’t have ideal “sides”/ends (Pahanu, Bunker,etc) due to size/layout.

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I would love if the fab showed how much it blocked by some sort of indicator when using Tac/Com. Perhaps when holding the fabricator and hitting Tac/Com it would show exactly how much area of the map it covers.

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Great idea. And yeah - it also drives me nuts when someone drags fab to the absolute border of the map.

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I’d say you could get away with half the amount of barriers in that picture

Exactly zero value in stacking barriers like this. I played one run of the daily without an engineer but a Jack doubling up as it instead, and we had a traditional spawn side setup with the fabricator outside the wall.

(Not that it stopped the Swarmak from spawning 5 meters away because TC.)

If I was engineering that game I would’ve waited till last 5 enemies are alive, move the fab and place all barriers in each section (couple in left side where nades are, couple in middle and couple in right side where salvos spawn).

I would rinse and repeat that every wave (build barriers).

Push the team out, this way you should have all team covering all sections and not overcrowded in a tiny section like shown in that pic.

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Yup. I hate small base builds. At the very start, fine as you won’t necessarily have enough barriers to push out yet. But after the initial stage pushing out is a necessity for me. I hate it when teams bunch up at the rear of the base. It unnecessarily invites pressure and gives up too much control of the map to the enemy so that you end up taking fire from too many angles. All it takes is a single breach and all of a sudden the whole base is exposed to enemy gunfire to the point you cant even swap out weapons from a locker. If the base was bigger and more of the map controlled, you just have a much better handle on the angles you can be shot from.

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There really isn’t. It doesn’t slow them down any further, you’d technically only extend the life-time of the cover there in a sense of that one barrier would break first before the other one might break a bit later but it’s not worth the resources, especially not if a boss just smashes them immediately. Damage-wise it’s for sure not needed since it’s little to no damage that would be done additionally.

That spot in specific is a bad habit as well. The fab can be carried out way further preventing back spawns and you can literally put the barriers in the middle of the map if placed correctly. Occasionally you’ll get one or two enemies inside the building or the little side-way.

For reference, at least that’s how I engineer on the map:


Red = Fab Position
Green = Barrier placements (lvl 3 at cover pieces, just two needed)
Blue = Occasional “inside base” enemy-spawns to look out for

Can be adapted on the opposing side obviously.

EDIT: Also barriers on the staircase leading up to Sanctuary. Have one team-mate positioned there covering that side. Be aware of the blue spawn next to Planetarium. A sentry pointing to those two spots where the enemies may spawn “inside the base” are usually a good alert mechanism. A decoy will do as well usually and have them hug the decoys immediately. The melees on those are very obvious to be heard.

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I know everyone is saying there’s no value to overlapping spikes, and i haven’t experimented with it much but I can add a couple things to the discussion:

-I’ve played with experienced players who swear by it. I used to regularly play with this group that would always criss-cross them like tic-tac-toe lol. When I’d inquire as to why they’d tell me it works and ‘enemies can’t get through’ or something along that vein.

-Way back I used to occasionally do games with @MADGameYEAA (has the most horde completions) and though we never double upped lvl1s, we did do a lot of games with the map absolutely covered in barriers. I did notice very odd enemy behavior during those games, what seemed to happen is after the enemy (especially drones) grinded in barriers for a long while it was like they would ignore players. You could walk right up to them and they’d just ignore you. It always stuck with me as some sort of glitch. I began to call it the enemy barrier glitch.

-I’ve also noticed that mechanic’s increased fortification damage card seems to help induce this behavior.

I dunno maybe the increased damage causes the enemy to stagger. I asked @MADGameYEAA once about it and he theorized you could walk up to them because they were ‘locked on’ to another player, but that never seemed like an adequate explanation to me.

Like I said I never really experimented with this so I can’t really say anything for sure.

That madgameyeaa is the nicest person I’ve ever met :slightly_smiling_face:.

No comment :slight_smile:

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He must have split personalities then. Lol

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In the absence of your Tac Com idea, someone should coalesce all of our anecdotal learnings into actual map pictures for everyone around these locations. At least if it’s out there, there’s hope in reducing bizarre Fabricator drags by randoms. (Like if you’re going to play Overload, at least know where to put the Fabricator where it blocks both of that half of the map’s spawns.)

I know the Fabricator can go outside and still block enemy spawns behind you like and RelaxingKoty said but I still choose to put it behind the wall because I personally prefer it being safer (for the people using it, not so much a concern over its destruction). But admittedly that’s for a similar reason for why matches I’m in have probably a <20% success rate if no one is engineering… I’m not playing with coordinated, consistently high caliber teams, so a safety margin helps. But my choice is from a “gut feel” and not data-driven. This thread has encouraged me to try the outside next time on that map and the one choosing the location.

Would you really put a sentry (or decoy) there? If you’re bothered by the spawn, isn’t easier to put a lower-cost barrier or grenade there to outright block the spawn itself, rather than managing them after the fact? Speyer is a large enough map that I think it takes a lot to consistently break the spawn behavior by restricting too many of their locations (I assume the Swarmak spawn AmicableWall mentioned was just generic bad spawning and not blocked spawning).

I and apparently most people here haven’t experienced that benefit, but maybe this warrants some explicit testing.

I don’t recall noticing something like this arising from barriers. This is something different from the frequent occurrence of Pouncers spawning idle, or Juvies getting stuck in the cars on Gridlock or other repeatable places? It’s something to do specifically with barriers?

Anything goes, with randos I usually put a Decoy there at both places.

Yes

Thanks to 900+ Non Master Runs :wink: So that doesn’t mean a thing who knows what Mods were off on those non Masters.

You’re right it really doesn’t. Some of the people in the top 10 are still total bots lol.

I been helping a.l soldier compete for the number 1 spot on frenzy, he really crushed hard to get to 5k first (nearly all his are master) but the person in second keeps busting out a million begineer runs or something to catch up.

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Feels like a total waste of time. People glitch difficulty all the time.
Even if it shows 4999 master runs, they might not be true master runs.

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