Allfathers' Mastered without JD (featuring Marcus, Clayton, and Kait)

We had 1 Swarmak, 1 Martriarch, 1 Snatcher, 2 Flocks

Already planning for another run, but without Kait :grin:

We had over 300K in the Fab by the end, props to Jack and Del !

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Nice one, did you used hijacked claw for Marcus?

But people still think Kait is more powerful than Marcus. Even not playing Marcus much I’m inclined to disagree with that view because while Kait certainly excels if enemies get into close range… you don’t really want them to be and she is nigh useless at range unless you’re doing boring Tri-Shot spamming. Meanwhile Marcus has free self sustaining auto headshots at any range with very little damage dropoff for Retro or none for the Claw. Which is miles better than only close range damage potential, though this is of course also map dependent(Allfathers certainly isn’t the smallest nor the most covered map so it’s not that hard to keep those Marcus headshots running while Kait pretty much always has to wait for the enemies to waltz in closer).

Out of curiosity… was this done with or without running the Jack Hijack weapon trades?

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We’ll see how well that holds up in the future. If they remove the Jack-swap Marcus’ damage-output will take a hefty dent.

Yeah, and if they do that then its yet another case of “whoa, something unexpected showed uo, which players liked, which allowed players to play in a more than what we originally envisioned, so must kill it asap!”

I mean, think about it… Marcus with that claw is not more powerful than JD with GLs… And JD with GLs is “allowed”, right? So whats the problem with letting another character be able to " carry" the team? It does break horde, doesnt apply in eacape, like wtf, tc, if they break it…

I played as jd in master games. That sh#t was easier than above… You have to do more, coordinate with team mates more (ammo boxes, jack, etc) than jd who just buys GLs and just needs someone to buy him a locker…
And marcus playing this makes it more fun for other team mates who can up their game with helpful headshots…

This makes master level horde a good, fun challenge, not a stupid insane grind of hiding behind cover to take pot shots with trishots between GL volleys…

Re kait: kait is very strong. In the above game, kait was mostly supportive in nature, in games where she can be more offensive, she still kicks serious butt…

I never argued otherwise but the conditions for her to go and to a lot of damage are strictly limited whereas Marcus has more overall damage potential due to the ranges at which he can inflict it - pretty much anywhere on the map with line of sight to an enemy. And almost or maybe even every time I’ve seen a Marcus screenshot on Master hot on the heels of JD or above him, or without a JD, Kait was kinda just sitting there with less damage than either because not that much really got into close range for her to utilize her shotgun damage on.

So yeah, I would personally consider Marcus over Kait in most scenarios. She only excels at close range(I include Cloak kills in that because you have to run up to enemies to execute or meatshield). Marcus can be good at any range. On a slightly different note, why are people so obsessed with Lizzie being so much better of a “filler” character than every other? Even as someone who really likes to play her she doesn’t have much going for her besides the Silverback for emergency uses and Cold Finish, in a Master match.

I think Kait’s main trump card is being able to bleed enemies, which is especially useful for bosses.

I did an almost-no-bleed (it was almost no-bleed because we had Clayton in the team who technically can bleed enemies through his ultimate ability) master run today on Exhibit which is obviously one of the easiest maps, but some of the bosses took a while to kill - mainly the Carrier, although it wasn’t difficult - just these boss waves took twice as long. We had JACK, Del, Clayton, Marcus and Lizzie (who used the Salvo and Trishot Silverback cards). According to TC’s weird definitions of roles we basically had 3 “tanks” in the team!

It went smoothly but having Kait would have made the boss waves quicker. Marcus was easily the highest scoring player.

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I think it’s just part of the established Horde meta and a remnant from the pre-fix Sisters To The End days.

I’d argue strongly that Clayton is a better character to use in Horde nowadays because he’s such a good support character. His stun-lock is so over-powered and his Reflective Shredder can absolutely skin groups of enemies. It’s so much fun charging out of your base and activating it to deal with Stumps! Marcus and Fahz are also very decent characters as well.

Over time I’d hope that the meta changes gradually. I’m trying to spread the word as much as possible amongst the friends I play with. When I suggested a no-JD and almost no-bleed master run, they thought I was mental, but credit to them they went along with it and it was fine and alot of fun.

Cloak is also very useful for when you’re stuck with some ridiculous camper Drones with the Hammerburst or Claw that absolutely refuse to get closer. I absolutely relish going after them and backstabbing their sorry backsides because they are unbearable, obnoxious pains when playing Kait and they do that s…

But my point remains, outside of those two very specific things Kait is not great with a total lack of ranged damage, while Marcus can pretty much fire at an enemy from any range with Living Legend and not care. Everything I’ve seen points to that with Marcus players who get to keep their ult running through the waves easily outdoing Kait players simply because they don’t have to wait for the enemies to waltz in closer.

I do not think I would participate in a no-bleed run though, perhaps partially due to the time commitment needed, and the current lack of balance. Especially if I was looking to play Kait who would be somewhat boring to use without the shotguns.

We never intended to do a no-bleed run - we only realised after the first boss wave that only Clayton had the ability to bleed, although I have to admit it was always on my list of things to do at some point as a personal challenge.

We didn’t get any robot waves at all and only lucked out on wave 35 and got Sentinels, so Clayton didn’t even have Salvos to use until this point and had to rely on other explosive weapons to stun enemies.

With the Kait VS Marcus debate, I haven’t played as Marcus very much so I need to do this before I compare the two. Kait’s Cloak is alot of fun to use. I tend to average Cloak usage 9 waves out of every 10, so I guess this would compensate somewhat.

Unrelated to the Kait question, man, it is hard to find people for theses runs…

So many people jump in, see marcus, and bail out immediately. We say No JD, but so many JDs jump in, and wont swtich or leave, even as we try to explain what we are doing. So we have to kick them…

This Marcus setup opens up the game to countless setups beyond the fixid JD GL spam TC loves so much… So, naturally, expect a “patch/fix” any moment now…

The game on Harbor we did last night (other thread) we had to restart like 5 times until we got the right people, on mics, everyone had the right cards, etc… But once we get all the pieces in place, it was very smooth run and fun for everyone… 2h…

I did some tests on my own… It looks like an active boltok headshot does about 2400 damage… With 60% bleed, that comes out to about 3900 damage, PER BULLET. Mac gets 72 of those bullets… Even if you assume only every other reload is active, thats 225, 000 damage per wave Mac can do sitting next to Marcus in these games, just with the pistol, never mind the 30% damage retro, or the 60 bullets in the markza, each active headshot doing over 1000 damage: more than a trishot…

But people jump in, see Marcus and Mac in a Master Horde and leave laughing at us “noobs” who dont know how to play Master Horde, haha…

I mean, unless you have the combo of JD, Lizzy, Kait, Jack, and engineer, it’s Doomed, right?
Lol, we only had level ONE barriers , no freeze, didnt need anything else… But try telling people that…

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Imagine having a Keegan with you that gets a hijacked Hammerburst alongside Marcus. Those two would wreck everything.

Well, the problem is ammo. The only source of ammo for these weapons are the ammo boxes and if you have multiple people fighting for them it wont work. So there is a natural limit to this technique…

I do believe this is an excellent alternative to the trishot campfest, and a lot more fun, so i think TC should extend locker support for it (like they embraced freezing stsying on barriers upgraded by an engineer) , but i have little hope for it.

One alternative is running fahz since the pilfer boxes he creates work too. So marcus, fahz, keegan, jack, engineer: the increased damage output of keegan would help offset the loss of clayton’s stun… Keegan’s boomshot would help with bosses too… So yeah, that might be an interesting twist on this approach.

I have really zero interest in playing with a jd gl thing anymore, that gets so boring quickly…

Doing this, with people using rifles, mostly, plus torque, and maybe salvo, ot really feels like the classic horde, not so dependent on bleed (jd or kait)

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“People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazi’s. You can’t trust people.” - Peep Show

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