A pro who wants to help things improve. Hear me out?(PVP thread)

Gears 5
#1

I’m not a normal forum poster, if you don’t know who I am then let me briefly introduce myself. My name is Justin Kenny, some of you may know me as “Kenny Bounce”. I’m a professional player for Team Reciprocity and I have been playing gears of war since 2006 while playing competitively since 2012ish. Not much of that matters, but some insight of where I come from in Gears.

I wanted to talk to everybody in here(im not sure how many people will give this attention) about the similar fight I think we are fighting but in 2 different places. That fight is us all wanting a better gears of war game. Everyone’'s definition of that could be different and this isn’t me saying that “gears 5 sucks”. This is me wanting more improvement to continue with gears 5. For the most part, I felt like TC was making consistent improvements until a part of this recent update, which is where im looking for help/insight here. My issue/the competitive scenes issue with this recent update is the increase in the slide speed and the increase in the speed boost in Gears 5. Now this may seem like a little thing, but in gears reality it plays a big role in how the game plays. Why this is an issue is because it creates one sided individual fights. Which means that in a specific one on one shotgun fight, a majority of players will use the faster movement system in some way to get a kill even though they don’t have the positional advantage. Why this is an issue is because in classic(notice im not saying better because thats opinionat based) gears you weren’t able to utilize a fast and lethal kill like you can now in this game and like you could in Gears 4. In older Gears games, you would have to methodically pick your opponent apart by using whatever way they gave you to kill them. Gears 5 initially gave us something similar than that, but this update takes away from the methodical nature that Gears of war had in its classic titles because of the speed increase that has been done. This is something that myself and the competitive scene feels needs to change.

Now, I understand that not everybody is going to see the issue in that. Which is fine, everybody likes what they like. But let me run something by everybody. What if, instead of creating the faster “less methodical” gameplay in gears 5, TC took the game and made it more methodical but with more ways to individually outplay an opponent.

This is how I would propose that being done:

  1. revert slide speed and speed boost
  2. keep strafe speed increases and roadie run speed increase
  3. continue to look at the speed in which you can shoot out of roadie running(maybe make almost instant)
  4. make rolling sideways or backwards faster than rolling forward and allow players to shoot faster out of it.
  5. reduce the damage OR create a recoil pattern for each rifle to help improve the skill gap. This is something that isn’t mandatory, but could help with the balancing of the picture we are looking to create.

Now, each of these changes play a role in making the individual gameplay more methodical. #1 rebalances the individual fights to make them equal(right now the aggressive playstyle is more dominant to the defensive). #'s 2-4 create different abilities for both playstyles to utilize to outplay an opponent. #5 is something that can help allow gears to get back to its roots. Gears of War at its roots was a shotgun/individual heavy game that allowed players to outplay their opponents at every turn. If you were a “more dominant” player in a lobby, then there wasn’t a single person who could take you down. And if there was someone who was equal level to you, then you would have the best fights against those players. Its what made Gears, Gears. It feels like in the new age gears games it is too difficult to take over like in old games because of the assault rifles. This could be because the damage on the rifles are too high, or the fire rate is too high, or the recoil pattern isn’t hard enough or etc. Whatever the solution would be for those, it still stands that they are making it to where the movement needs to be “more overpowering” to outplay an opponent using them. My proposition is to reduce movement speeds while increasing the speed at which shotgunners can shoot out of the roadie run+roll while reducing rifle effectiveness(if needed) so the speed of the game can be lowered and more methodical without damaging the ability to outplay opponents can be introduced into the game.

When thinking about this, don’t think too much into the number balancing of this. We don’t have the numbers to properly give a solid solution number wise

I am looking for ways for Gears to give those feelings again while not taking away from the positive things that come with the new age Gears games. Let me know if you agree or disagree in the comment section below. Hopefully we are on the same page and we can help Gears improve.(or nobody responds to this and the thread disappears lol).

Thank you for reading this

42 Likes
Why speed increased?
Just about every possible alteration to gears 5's possible upcoming movement
The Big Tuning Thread
Movement Mechanics Update - Operation 2
The Big Tuning Thread
Why slow down the speed on wall bouncing?
#2

Personally I like the new movement much much better. Faster gameplay is more fun to me.

I guess I don’t understand your argument that faster movement gives one player an advantage over any other. Both players can do the same thing at any time. Anyone with a ’positional advantage’ still has that advantage and both players can perform the same movements so everyone is still on equal ground. I guess I also don’t understand how slowing the game down would make it more enjoyable, and that’s why most of us play, to have fun.

The only way I wouldn’t completely hate a revert would be if they also made the weapons weaker like you mentioned. The combination of strong weapons and slow movement absolutely ruins gears for me.

12 Likes
#3

Personally, I agree with you and if I could I would let the pros actually shape the multiplayer gameplay. But that’s not the problem.

The problem is that TC has FUNDAMENTALLY bad judgement. I’m not saying they are bad people or are incompetent. They are obviously talented and intelligent.

What I mean is that they make decisions, (evident by how the game launched), that would clearly not be popular for a gears of war game or any game for that matter.

Another glaring problem is that their philosophy is different than mine and yours. When you use the term “skill gap”, they clearly defined the word differently because they’ve said they have raised it when they haven’t. That’s not an opinion either.

I played competitive tuning on gears 4. How did they go from that to this? I attribute it to the bad judgement they have about gears multiplayer.

I don’t know how to solve this communication gap, but just saying be careful. TC will hear something other than what you are saying.

2 Likes
#4

As much is it’s going to annoy some people here, I also agree with this. High-level players are the ones who push a game’s systems to their limits, and largely discover the various meta strategies. This goes for all kinds of competitive games - even the devs for Age of Empires 2 DE largely only talk to the game’s top ranked players to discuss actual buffs and nerfs.

Let the top 1% shape the core gameplay experience, and then let those changes filter down. And I say that despite not being anywhere close to that top 1%.

In that same vein, I think The Coalition’s major problem, is that they don’t have a means of workshopping changes with actual players, before committing them to the live game. How do they still not have an ongoing public test client? Or an “insider” program? Halo MCC for PC had months of closed testing groups, prior to going live. Cripes, even SEA OF THIEVES has an insider testing program that tries out patches and content updates, and gives feedback, weeks before they go live - and things have been delayed, sometimes for months, based on those insiders.

Gears of War fancies itself a competitive, “esports”-worthy game, and they don’t bother running major gameplay changes through their paces with actual players first?

1 Like
#5

Your problems as well as everyone elses reside in hit detection. Evasion plays a major role in the gears franchise. It was too slow before. I am going to go out on a limb and say you sit there like well I am shooting people and they are one shot popping me it needs to be slowed down so shots can connect. That is not the right way to look at it. You should land your shots and they should register. Once that issue is taken care of you will see that movement speed is not your issue.

In all the gears games I’ve been able to evade fire by sliding or bouncing. It’s a defensive maneuver and is viable. This game has never been exclusively tactical and shouldn’t be. It’s always rewarded better movement and accuracy. However right now the accuracy is in the toilet because nothing lands. That I am confident in saying is the issue.

14 Likes
#7

thats why most of us play, to have fun.

Exactly.

We play for fun. This guy and his community on gears? They play for money.

Yeah, lets let the echo chamber idiots with a monetary conflict of interest dictate the games inner working right?

WHAT COULD GO WRONG LOL

3 Likes
#8

Maybe bring it down a notch or twelve. The guy came to the forum and politely offered his feedback and unique perspective on recent mechanical changes to the game - something that hardly merits this exaggerated, hostile response.

He’s not “dictating” anything to anyone. He’s offering his opinion, and even mentions more than once that he knows people may not agree with all of it. Acting like his viewpoint doesn’t matter, because he’s somehow been compromised and tainted by the fact that he plays the game for a living, is completely beyond the pale. It has crossed the event horizon of ridiculousness, and entered the ridiculous singularity.

19 Likes
#9

Not for me. I think Gears being so tied to esports has hurt it far more than helped it.

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#10

Well if hurts eSports that much, well time to pick another game, I hear COD is good.

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#11

Nope, this is what got us here in the first place imo. I rather TC listen to the masses rather than a few individuals. From map designs having to be tailored to fit Escalation over any other mode to game mechanics that favor a select few rather than what most people want, I think that the pro scene for the most part has had a negative influence to the MP portion of the franchise as a whole.

@Kenny_Bounce, Replied to ya about in the other thread as I wasn’t aware this thread was a thing beforehand, so I’ll just quote the response so that we may keep the convo in one place.

6 Likes
#12

Its nice that you post in the forum and explain your thoughts like many other Gears players does. Instead of gathering your fansbase to spam Revert in a devstream like a bunch of teenage girls.

You might want to think about why all the people left Gears 5. Because without the player base and hardcore fans there will be no Pro league.

The knife that TC stuck into allot of fans is still present. And it will take allot of effort from TC to remove that and make up for it.

Theres so many problems other than slide speed and speed boost. ( which you don’t explain the effects of or showcasing a clip of) You are a pro player just bring your pros and showcase the problem you guys have.
And why revert and not improve?

And as @anon32088142 points out. All players has the same toolset to play with. So thats not the real issue you have.

If its the up A’s, and that theres no real defense against it. Then that’s the problem. Maybe TC can figure out more ways to counter it.

The reaction shots from up a’s should be a bigger problem . Because the attacked player has no visual feedback on the direction the attacker is shooting at. Beacuse a missing animation of the character turning the gnasher where it aims.

Also it might be that you have one camera angle standing/sitting still and one when you move. Which makes people miss judge where other player are in the x,y,z.

And yes, Ryan Already said they are working on things like this.

1 Like
#13

I’m not suggesting it should be more closely tied to eSports - I’m suggesting they solicit more feedback from the “top end” of their community when it comes to mechanical or balance changes, whether that’s eSports players, or simply people who are recognized as among the best competitive Gears players.

These are the people doing the most comprehensive deconstructions of the mechanics in Gears 5 multiplayer, and thus are the people most likely to be able to give you detailed, informed suggestions for how to improve balance and feel.

I also think the harm eSports has allegedly done to Gears, is greatly exaggerated.

1 Like
#14

In Horde i have often side rolled and been hammering the trigger to shoot, often cussing the game because of its slow reaction. These actions work in PvP and in Horde, and yes, they could do with a little tweek, but not too much, we do not want this game to be just for the professionals.
I also noticed this is just about PvP, being a Pro and all, it is expected, but you did talk about Gears 5, which includes, or should include Horde. The Class system is broken, there needs to be something positive done with it, either abolish it completely, or implement it right. Scouts are either Collector Scouts, meaning they utilise the Energy Skill Cards over Weapons, or they are Tank Scouts using Regeneration, extra health and Weapons Skill Cards. Engineers are the only ones that can build and Repair, move the Fabricator and have the ability to Lock Down the Fortifications. Both of these two Characters are important in the game, and no game should be without them. The DPS at the moment, are fine, i think, except the present Sniper, the Snipers seems less powerful, and X-Ray vision that shoots through walls is somewhat Over Powered.
I am not going to get in to Escape, i feel as though it should not exist in Gears.
But, my thoughts are just as that, above, i am certain this wil create the proper balance in a Horde game. Also, something i do find important, you do not need two Engineers in the same game, the competition is the enemy, the Horde, not who can use the Energy quicker and build the fastest. Baird needs Cost Reduction on Fortifications and on Repairs too. I hate the way The Coalition have turned Baird second best to Del (exaggeration).
Building Horde around Jack and the Forge is as bad as 343 not putting Firefight in to Halo 5, this is a mistake, and can not, nor will not be forgiven (over dramatic)

#15

I get where OP is coming from. This seems to really come down to preference, and how you like to play the game.
Now, for starters, I did not start playing Gears until last year, so take this with a grain of salt…

Personally, I enjoyed the frantic speed of Gears 4, so I was quite happy when they announced the movement update. Now even at this point, 5 is not as fast as 4 was, but is an improvement nonetheless.
I can see how some people could enjoy the slower, more methodical movement of 5 at launch, which focused more on accurate aiming and well-thought-out movement mechanics. I did have a couple main issues with it though-

  1. Aim assist nullifies actual accuracy. Now this might not be as big of an issue in the pro scene given that they mostly play modes in which aim assist is already turned off (Exe and Esc). But in core modes, this made the stiff movement very annoying.

  2. While the slower movement did give players more of a chance to outplay their single opponent through skill alone, it was very difficult to take on a 2-3v1. You simply could not avoid multiple shots well.

  3. Wallbouncing is a skill, and is a mechanic that can be used effectively when done correctly. 5 at launch removed this skill for the most part.

  4. Personally, I don’t enjoy bot walking around a map, which is what I (and most of the people I would play with/against) would end up doing, because any excess movement would get you instantly killed

Now these points all kinda run together, but I think you get my point.
I don’t think one is better or more skillful than the other, but I am inclined to think that more people favor the faster movement of 5 now than the stiff movement of 5 at launch. Thus, TC would lose even more of their playerbase if they were to revert.

In a perfect world, we’d have options to adjust movement in customs lol

11 Likes
#16

Well it’s damn sure good that you have no official power. It’s the “pros” influence that caused more problems than anything else with all the Competitive garbage in Gears 4.

Thanks for the migraine. What a ridiculous thing to say. The “Top 1%” means very little in such a messed up, inaccurate ranking system that can be easily exploited as well as climbed with sheer dumb luck. It’s not wise to give that amount of power to a select few individuals.

It’s not realistic anyway, if they don’t listen to all of us here on the forums what makes you think they’ll list to the mighty “Top 1%”?

7 Likes
#17

That could not be any more true. I dont remember the last time the shots were immediate. Every so often I get a game were my shots due line up quick but that should be every game and not rarely. Last time I remember playing with shots being perfect was years and years ago, couldnt tell you if it was the game or the fact I was running an amazing connection. I dont struggle in other games with hit detection so obviously TC needs to really up their game cause this is beyond ridiculous.

1 Like
#18

Edit : Why do people seem to assume this post is somehow hating on Kenny or the idea of this thread? It wasn’t even directed at him. Look at who the response is directed at. I was just asking something and explained why. The only one here who was like that is Wolf, who I was in part referring to with this post, because of his insistence that Horde as it is currently made is perfectly fine(when it’s not, but this is a different subject entirely) and the way he vehemently disagreed with anyone who thought otherwise, which would be in direct contradiction to him ranting on about how the best players shouldn’t have an influence on the direction of PvP in this game because he only plays Master and because he somehow thinks because he can use every character in it fine and do matches without relying on the “OP” characters, that it doesn’t require changing, which is basically opposed to the feelings of the majority of the forum userbase, and not good for the game if it remained the way it was now for the remainder of the game’s life.

Is this directed at both PvP and PvE players or only PvP? Because according to some on here, Horde should remain “balanced” the way it is now because it suits their way of playing only Master difficulty all the time, completely disregarding anything below that. In where apparently, the way Horde should be balanced is by having bullet sponge enemies with ultra fast down times, and anyone who believes it should be actually challenging instead of just a tedious artificial difficulty step up that isn’t actually difficult is going to “ruin the mode”. A case where I would argue the “Top 1%”, whatever that may refer to, are not right and just detrimental to the game or a particular mode because of them not accepting any views other than theirs, and trying to shout those down without ever seeming to bring any counter points to the table beyond “This is how it was intended to be balanced”, which does not mean it is automatically right, and is not a good point because of that. Claiming anybody who mentions a fact that is going to be the case in 99% of cases is “spreading misinformation”, or when mentioning a certain thing that can easily be observed by just turning on a simple setting in a particular mode, is also told to be “spreading misinformation” and then goes ahead to prove the mentioned fact and then gets no response afterwards. Go figure.

Could you just say “Play lower difficulties how you like”? Absolutely so, but that also depends on other players going along with it, and it would be a better point if the rewards and/or RNG for the difficulties below Incon or Insane weren’t so bad for Horde(XP is a matter not helped by the existence of Boost as a solution to a “problem” created by TC in that Reup progression is absurdly slow without it, not that they are worth going after right now). And if players just realized having a JD or Kait as a necessity on the team when you purposely choose the easy modifiers is just not a thing that is true.

Now I’ll just go away because it’s bound to attract the attention of a particular person on this forum who has proven to show a lack of self control and respect towards the opinions on these forums previously on several occasions…

1 Like
#19

I think you misread that. Hit detection is a mess I was not saying it was good. What I was saying is if it was fixed movement speed would not seem like an issue.

#20

Thats what I meant too, I completely agree with you hit detection is a mess, its probably the main reason behind most peoples frustrations. Once and only once hit detection is fixed for whatever reason its way off, will we then be able to figure out if anything else is actually wrong with the game.

3 Likes
#21

I agree with everything you said Kenny. Thank you.

There seems to be a disconnect between the regular community and the Pro/Competitive players and I really appreciate you posting here on the forums.

I have been saying that I think the Gnasher has been in the worst spot its ever been but I’ve been thinking the last couple of days that the problem I’m having with it may be due more to the change in the movement speed rather than the Gnasher itself.

Not sure if I’m way off base here or not but something feels off to me in 1v1 fights and I don’t think its just my bad play… but it could be :man_shrugging:

1 Like